Predictive ROI President Erik Jensen Deconstructs How Proof Activates Demand

The transcript below has been edited lightly for clarity, speaker identification, proper names, and source notes. The audio remains the authoritative version of the conversation.

Stephen Woessner [00:00:08 – 00:00:52]

Over the past decade, we’ve had more than 1,200 conversations with CEOs, bestselling authors, and agency leaders. And here’s what we’re seeing. Agencies that had built an authority position no longer struggled to be seen. Instead, they struggled to activate latent demand. Agency leaders have said to us, it’s exactly where we’re sitting right now— authority without demand. So welcome to the In Demand Agency Podcast presented by Predictive ROI. It’s sparked by research from the Harvard Business Review, Edelman, Gallup, Agencycore, all showing that trust has moved upstream. In today’s marketplace, authority earns attention.

Erik Jensen [00:00:52 – 00:00:53]

Yes.

Stephen Woessner [00:00:53 – 00:02:10]

But demand is what turns attention into action. Each episode deconstructs the science of demand from behavioral psychology, decision-making research, and the cross-industry strategies behind why and how B2B buyers make their decisions. We interview the world’s leading behavioral scientists, agency network leaders, and strategists from industries far beyond ours, experts who are reshaping how demand works. I’m your host, Stephen Wessner, and in each episode, we’ll translate their insights directly into the agency world. And these conversations are now being heard by a community of over 30,000 agency owners and their teams. With me for today’s episode is Eric Jensen, president and COO of Predictive ROI and one of our 3 owners. In episode 2 of the podcast, Hannah Roth from our predictive team and I walk through what she and Eric are calling the authority-demand ecosystem, which illustrates how our team currently thinks about demand. The left side represents authority.

Stephen Woessner [00:02:11 – 00:02:51]

The right side represents demand. And the invisible trust bridge is what connects authority with demand. And Eric and I are going to dissect the trust bridge and the exact mechanisms that you and your team can put into place to help your right-fit prospects transition from saying things like, wow, these people are smart, to, wow, I cannot lose them. Eric is one of the chief architects of the Authority Demand ecosystem, and I’m excited to share his insights with you because he may change how you think about demand in your entire biz dev strategy.

Erik Jensen [00:02:53 – 00:02:55]

Authority is not the same as trust.

Stephen Woessner [00:02:55 – 00:02:55]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:02:55 – 00:03:19]

It’s strongly correlated, but it is distinct. Authority is a part of trust, but trust encapsulates authority. We want to make sure that the pattern is visible, it’s easy to recognize, and ideally we have a big enough pattern that it becomes obvious if there’s something that is not there. But you can have an authority and also have nobody be able to envision hiring you for anything.

Stephen Woessner [00:03:22 – 00:03:27]

Eric, thanks very much for joining us. I am thrilled for our time together.

Erik Jensen [00:03:28 – 00:03:39]

I’m looking forward to it too. I don’t, I feel like I should put on my podcast voice and see if I can match you here, but it’ll be good. It’ll be fun. It’s been, it’s been too long since I’ve been on here, so.

Stephen Woessner [00:03:39 – 00:03:57]

Yeah. Well, this is going to be a great conversation and I always feel so a little bit weird, like welcoming you, welcoming Hannah to the show. Like, guesting on your own show, right? Because you guys own the business, so that feels a little bit weird, but awesome too at the same point.

Erik Jensen [00:03:57 – 00:04:02]

Yeah, no, I get it. I’m like, okay, this is just like normal everyday conversation.

Stephen Woessner [00:04:03 – 00:05:06]

So I know we’re going to talk a lot about trust and what you and Hannah are architecting inside what we’re currently calling the Authority Demand Ecosystem in the And the trust bridge that you so astutely pointed out not that long ago when the 3 of us were getting together and we were working through that piece. Trust being a central piece of that trust, the trust bridge, whatever metaphor you want to use, but trust is the glue, is what provides the opportunity to move from authority into demand. But let’s talk about the word trust and the topic of trust. Why is that word so important to you? Because I, I promise you, I believe that this is one of your superpowers, like developing trust-based relationships, that trust is super important. Trust is a red thread that runs through much of what you do, what you talk about, whether consciously or subconsciously. So when did you recognize that trust had evolved into a superpower?

Erik Jensen [00:05:06 – 00:05:47]

Well, calling it a superpower is maybe a bit generous. I don’t know if I’d go that far, but certainly it is a focus. And I don’t think it’s, I don’t think there’s a moment in it. I think there’s a few things that kind of tie into that. So the first is there’s the data, right? So if you look at the Edelman Trust Barometer, right, trust started declining really in a big way back in 2003. That was in the government and then took another massive hit in 2017, and this was business and government. And then in 2022, 2026, it took another big hit. So we’re continuing to see these things go down.

Erik Jensen [00:05:49 – 00:06:49]

And so, you know, we pay attention to that. It impacts agencies, it impacts businesses. And so if we’re not focusing on it, then that’s a problem. And then second, there’s the work that we do, right? And we’ve shown trust shows up consistently in our work with agencies. And so most agencies get a lot of their business through word of mouth, through referrals, through other people saying, hey, you should talk to those folks. And then they’re borrowing trust, right? That’s how they get a lot of their new business is borrowing that trust. And so when we see all of those areas of trust, like third-party validations, speaking, teaching, meeting people in person, user-generated content, reviews. I mean, all of these are trust indicators and they’re all measures that marketing and businesses pay attention to a lot.

Erik Jensen [00:06:51 – 00:07:41]

And so that’s not an accident. And then third, there’s the path that we’ve taken in business over the years. So helping agencies and businesses for going on now close to 2 decades. Our work around transitional moments, which I’m sure that we’ll talk about at some point during this conversation, and then our own work with ourselves and our clients. So trust is just something that keeps coming up again and again and again in every facet of business and particularly business development. So I don’t know if it’s a superpower, but it’s hard to ignore the flashing lights when they’re constantly in your face, right? We’d have to be trying to ignore them at this point if we didn’t acknowledge that trust is something that’s really important.

Stephen Woessner [00:07:43 – 00:08:39]

So let me add a piece to this and actually invite our audience into this morning’s partner meeting, actually. And this is why, from my lens, I would say that trust is a superpower in how you’re always paying attention to it. So friends, this morning, uh, when Eric and I had our, um, weekly partner meeting, we were talking about sort of the halo effect. We were talking about networking. We were talking about expanding our ecosystem. We were talking about, um, you know, meeting people outside of, you know, the agency world and, and so forth and whatnot. And Eric was talking about, you know, the, the halo effect and those conversations and why they’re important, not only from a learning perspective, but then also. Using your word, or I guess 2 words from a few minutes ago, Eric, trust indicators.

Erik Jensen [00:08:40 – 00:08:40]

Okay.

Stephen Woessner [00:08:41 – 00:09:18]

So let’s peel back the curtain a little bit from what you shared with me this morning about the halo effect and how important it is to step into those conversations and so forth, not just from a learning perspective, but then what that can also then say to our audience prospects, like our audience who’s listening to you right now, their prospects. Like if, if someone from our audience went and did the things that you were suggesting that I do this morning, which I got super excited about, I’m like, oh my gosh, this is a galaxy-sized golden nugget. This is such a great idea. Our audience should be doing that exact same thing, Eric.

Erik Jensen [00:09:19 – 00:09:49]

Yeah. So what we were talking about, you’re right. It’s, it’s the networking side of things. And There is a difference in the sort of networking that we were talking about than maybe what most agencies focus on. So a lot of times businesses and agencies are focused on the individual businesses and networking with the potential buyers. And that’s good. Like you need to do that. I’m not suggesting anybody change that.

Erik Jensen [00:09:50 – 00:11:14]

But what we talked about is a distinct and separate function. Of where are we going to network with folks that provide halo effect? Where are we going to network with the folks that provide us with evidence that we are amongst that same group, right? Of leaders in thinking, leaders in learning, leaders in where the market is shifting. And that happens to be one of your superpowers is meeting people and networking. And so how can we, how can we as an organization leverage that is, I think, pretty important. But halo effect is, is absolutely one of those indicators of trust, right? So if I am going to, if I’m going to choose between 2 folks that I’m going to take advice from, and one of them is, I don’t know, Oprah’s confidant, and another one is Joe Schmuckatelli that I just met off the street. One of them, because of the halo effect, I’m going to use that as an indicator and go, maybe they’ve got something a little bit more to say. Maybe they’ve got a little bit, they’ve been through some sort of filtering that somebody else hasn’t. And that’s human tendency, right? We look to those that we respect and trust already, and those that they respect and trust makes a difference.

Erik Jensen [00:11:14 – 00:11:16]

And that’s referrals. It’s the same idea, right?

Stephen Woessner [00:11:18 – 00:12:11]

Yeah, this is going to be so great. And we’re going to hook this in, friends, into the trust bridge because that’s yet another trust indicator. So as we think about this metaphor, I’m just going to share this one piece and then I’m going to ask Eric to give you sort of the concept, the higher-level view, the high-level view of the trust bridge. And then we’ll go eye level here too. But think of all of these trust indicators, if you will, that Eric was just kind of reviewing or sharing with you, the third-party validations, the speaking, the reviews, all the things, word of mouth, all of those things. Think of them as bricks or stones or whatever, however you’re building the bridge, all the different pieces that are going to help your prospects move from the left side authority to the right side demand. Okay. So with that sort of context and foundation, and I know that there’s a lot more, which is why I’m now kicking it over to you, Eric.

Stephen Woessner [00:12:12 – 00:12:18]

So give us, give us like your current view of the bridge and how the bridge is built.

Erik Jensen [00:12:19 – 00:12:59]

Okay. So the trust bridge, and, and you’re right, this is, this is our current thinking on this. The trust bridge, the way that we approach it right now is it is proof, but proof that is focused in a very particular way. So trust as an emotion is delicate. Hope is scrappy. Fear can be insidious. Love is really strong, but trust is pretty delicate. The saying that I grew up with is one aw, shit takes care of 100 attaboys, right? And so when we think about what builds trust, healthy trust looks like comfort, safety, and confidence.

Erik Jensen [00:13:00 – 00:13:37]

Unhealthy trust Interestingly enough, still has a lot of confidence in it. And what these have in common is this underlying factor of consistency. All right? So the bridge of proof, it’s not just that you have proof, it’s that you are doing something very, very consistently. Because humans, our natural tendency is we look for patterns. We look for patterns that we can trust. We want to know that what has happened in the past is going to happen in the future. So that’s why we like case studies. And well, if this happened in the past, that should happen in the future.

Erik Jensen [00:13:37 – 00:14:01]

That’s why we like to check with other people. Well, if that happened for them, maybe that’ll happen for me. We’re looking for patterns. All right. Now, the interesting thing is, is we trust both positive and negative patterns. All right. But even negative patterns, We trust more than unknowns. Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:14:02 – 00:15:10]

And so that’s why oftentimes, you know, folks will stick with something that maybe isn’t so good. But, but obviously within a business context, in a new business context, you are looking to start off a pattern that is going to indicate that you are worth trusting. So the question is, what do you want to be consistent enough? Develop trust around it? How are you going to do, or how are you going to actually demonstrate that consistency? So if you want to build trust around something, you need to be able to do it, and then you need to be able to show it. Okay. And one of the things that I always find really interesting is when agencies say, well, you know, we demonstrate that we’re trustworthy because we say we’re trustworthy. Right? We demonstrate that we’re trustworthy because, you know, we have values on our website. We demonstrate that we’re trustworthy because we have, we have reviews from clients. And each one of those, lovely, all that is good, but that isn’t telling me what you should be trusted for.

Erik Jensen [00:15:12 – 00:15:14]

And that’s a big, big distinction.

Stephen Woessner [00:15:16 – 00:15:40]

So tell me if you would agree or disagree with this, that one of the best ways, or one way, to demonstrate trustworthiness is to actually do what you teach. In eating— sorry, Hannah, if you happen to be listening to this— eating your own dog food.

Erik Jensen [00:15:41 – 00:16:41]

Yeah, it absolutely makes a difference. I know, I know we joke about this internally, but right, it’s, it’s like, it’s like talking to a nurse about your health while you’re watching them chain smoke. It’s, it’s like going to, you know, a fitness instructor and they don’t take care of themselves. It’s going to someone and getting advice About, you know, how to keep your home and their home is a mess or a disaster. I get it. You know, sometimes it is— you can teach someone something that you’re not able to do yourself. And I don’t deny that, but it erodes at the trust when I can’t see you living what it is that you’re telling me to do. And it’s surprising agencies do this all the time, right? Um, we’ll talk to an SEO agency and be like, okay, so you’re talking about all the amazing things that you do with SEO.

Erik Jensen [00:16:41 – 00:16:43]

Do you do that for yourselves? Well, no, we’re different.

Stephen Woessner [00:16:45 – 00:16:46]

It doesn’t work for us.

Erik Jensen [00:16:46 – 00:17:07]

Right. It doesn’t work for us. Timeout. What? Right. You know, um, or the, uh, the, the branding agency that, that talks all the time about, oh yeah, it really matters, this consistency in the brand and the way that we show up. And then you go and you look and then, and And they’re like, yeah, don’t, don’t look at our stuff though. We’ve been working on the website. Like, how long?

Stephen Woessner [00:17:08 – 00:17:11]

We’re the cobbler’s kids, Eric. We’re the cobbler’s kids. Right.

Erik Jensen [00:17:12 – 00:17:21]

And I get that, you know, we, we struggle with that sometimes too. Uh, we, we all do, but, but I think you need to be able to honestly say we do these things for ourselves.

Stephen Woessner [00:17:21 – 00:17:21]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:17:22 – 00:17:28]

Um, before you can say, hey, others should be doing this for themselves too. Right.

Stephen Woessner [00:17:30 – 00:18:04]

So I, I, let’s go back to the patterns piece. When you said patterns, you know, we can trust and we’re looking for patterns. We trust both positive and negative patterns. We trust patterns even more than the unknown because at least the negative pattern is something tangible or whatever the right word would be. So is, is the proof piece that you were talking about before you went into the patterns is the proof piece. The proof is the evidence that the pattern will continue, whether it’s a positive pattern or a negative pattern.

Erik Jensen [00:18:05 – 00:18:21]

Yeah. So, you know, it’s interesting, you know, AI is certainly, you know, all the buzz right now. And, but AI is kind of designed to, in a lot of ways, emulate the way that human thought is, right? So AI is also looking for patterns. That’s what it does.

Stephen Woessner [00:18:22 – 00:18:22]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:18:22 – 00:18:30]

And so one of the things, if you look into the large language models, is they need to have a large sample size in order to be able to sufficiently see the pattern.

Stephen Woessner [00:18:30 – 00:18:30]

Yes.

Erik Jensen [00:18:31 – 00:19:04]

Okay. People can work off of much smaller groups of patterns typically than what AI can. We’re just, we’re just more efficient at it, but we still need to see that evidence. And the bigger the body of that evidence, the more confident we feel in our decision, right? So let’s just imagine that I put a plate of grapes, okay, in front of you, and you take one grape and it’s really delicious. And then you take another grape and it tastes like it’s gone bad. Okay. You have a small sample size. All right.

Erik Jensen [00:19:05 – 00:19:09]

And that’s going to make you go, hmm, I don’t know if these grapes are any good. I don’t know that I want to continue to eat those.

Stephen Woessner [00:19:09 – 00:19:10]

Hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:19:10 – 00:19:41]

Okay. But now if you look at that and go, okay, I’ve had 10 grapes and one of them was bad, and all those 10 grapes looked a certain way, which again, all of us know this. We can, we can look at a plate of grapes. We know which ones are bad, right? Because we can see the pattern. Well, if they’re good, they’re, they’re plump. They don’t have any blemishes on them. They’re, there’s no weird dents, whatever it happens to be. And the ones that are shriveled and cut and like, you know, half falling off or whatever it happens to be, those are probably the bad ones.

Erik Jensen [00:19:41 – 00:20:20]

Well, we can intuitively look at that and we can see that pattern. And so we want to make sure that the pattern is visible, is easy to recognize. And ideally, we have a big enough pattern that it becomes obvious if there’s something that is not there. Because if I look at a large pattern and there’s no anomalies in it, I’m going to go, okay, cool. This feels like it’s all good, right? But if there’s anomalies within that pattern, Now I question the entire bunch of grapes. Ah, okay. If there’s a few of them that are bad, how many of them are bad? When are they going to go bad? I’m going to be more critical about every single grape that I eat.

Stephen Woessner [00:20:22 – 00:21:01]

This is super good. Okay, so then let’s take what you just said. The pattern is visible, easy to recognize, and the pattern also has to be large enough, whether that’s Statistically valid or whatever, as far as like large enough, the pattern. Let’s take that now into the content or into content, excuse me, not into the content, but let’s talk about the, as it relates to the pattern, the difference that you see between content that builds authority, the left side of the ecosystem, and then that builds the bridge. Like how does the pattern become evident In the content.

Erik Jensen [00:21:03 – 00:21:08]

Got it. Okay. So I think one thing to kind of note is authority is not the same as trust.

Stephen Woessner [00:21:09 – 00:21:09]

Yep.

Erik Jensen [00:21:09 – 00:21:37]

It’s strongly correlated. Don’t get me wrong. That’s why, that’s why we recommend authority is definitely something that should be built. Um, but it is distinct. Authority is a part of trust, but trust encapsulates authority. Trust needs more things, right? Um, so. In the B2B world, right? Like authority is your ability to teach at depth with impact to a specific audience consistently. You’ll notice consistently keeps coming up.

Erik Jensen [00:21:38 – 00:21:52]

That’s not a clean line because those are also things that build trust. Not a big surprise. Okay. But you can have an authority and also have nobody be able to envision hiring you for anything.

Stephen Woessner [00:21:53 – 00:21:54]

Okay. Why do you think so?

Erik Jensen [00:21:55 – 00:21:59]

Okay. So, um, I was actually recently listening to a video.

Stephen Woessner [00:21:59 – 00:22:00]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:22:00 – 00:22:28]

I, I need to rebuild my deck and I’m going through the process of deciding like, okay, what materials should I use? What is the process that I should— I use wood, should I be using composite? Like what, what are the choices here? Right. Um, and so I watched this, this, um, video and it was a decking material video. If it was just about the materials, if it was just like, here’s wood, here’s composite, here’s PVC. Okay, great. I would know lots about the materials.

Stephen Woessner [00:22:28 – 00:22:28]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:22:30 – 00:22:41]

But the person that was putting on the video was a company that wanted to be hired, right? They didn’t, they didn’t just create the video because they felt like creating the video. They created the video because they want to generate customers.

Stephen Woessner [00:22:41 – 00:22:41]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:22:42 – 00:22:47]

Um, and if they were just talking about the materials, I’d be like, okay, great. Thanks for the information. But what do I hire you for?

Stephen Woessner [00:22:48 – 00:22:48]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:22:48 – 00:23:15]

Here’s what they did. Every example that they gave, they put it on a deck. And they said, here’s— I mean, they literally, they showed the deck, here’s the materials on the deck, here’s how they fastened to the deck. Here’s the difference of the fasteners to the deck. Here’s how they did, you know, did tests on it. They did heat tests on it. They did all sorts of different things with it. They even talked about the environment.

Erik Jensen [00:23:16 – 00:23:50]

Where I’m at here in Minnesota, right? Got extreme hot, extreme cold. It’s got to be able to handle that. I now know that they’re not just an authority on the materials. Their authority is on the problem that I want to solve, which is the deck. So now I know, gosh, this seems complicated. I don’t know if I want to do all this. Boy, this is going to be a lot of work. Maybe I could just talk to them about doing that, right? Whereas otherwise I’d have said like, oh, well, I just assumed that I would talk to them about which material to buy, which isn’t what they do.

Stephen Woessner [00:23:51 – 00:23:51]

Hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:23:52 – 00:24:26]

Right? So authority is, is very useful, but it still has to be directed. And that’s where that pattern comes in, right? Of great, you know your stuff, but tell me about what. Great, you help your audience, but great, tell me, tell me exactly who that audience is. Great. You’re super smart and you’re up to date on all the latest and greatest things. Awesome. How does that apply? So that way I can see how this works. I can envision the past, this pattern.

Erik Jensen [00:24:27 – 00:24:38]

I can envision myself being put into that pattern and go, okay, if all of this is true in the past and all of this is true in the present, then likely this will remain true in the future when I work with you.

Stephen Woessner [00:24:40 – 00:25:11]

Holy bananas, Eric. That was awesome. Uh, okay, friends, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to take a quick break and then when we come back, I’m going to share some brief highlights with Eric regarding the authority example that he just shared with us. And then I’m going to ask for his take. Okay, here we go. We’re going to take a quick break and we’ll be right back. Hey friends, I’d like to share a free resource that my Predictive ROI team built for you based on the insights and wisdom that Eric Jensen is sharing with you right now during this episode.

Stephen Woessner [00:25:12 – 00:25:42]

If you go to predictiveROI.com/trust, you can download our free Trust Bridge scorecard. It’s 5 questions. It’ll take you 3 minutes. And the scorecard will show you exactly where your proof is strong, where it’s invisible, and what your prospects need to see Before they choose you. Again, that’s predictiveROI.com/trust to get your free scorecard. Okay. A couple of highlights there. That was super good.

Stephen Woessner [00:25:42 – 00:26:00]

And then I also want to go back to your ingredients about the authority piece when you went at depth and consistently and so forth. But first, an observation here, because when you’re, when you’re working through that example about the deck, you were talking about materials in situational examples that were relevant to you.

Erik Jensen [00:26:01 – 00:26:01]

Right.

Stephen Woessner [00:26:01 – 00:26:54]

Right. And, and then going back to, because you said, I want to see, see how this works. I want to see how it works, which is why the situational example was relevant. But then going back to how you described a pattern, you said a pattern is visible and easy to recognize. The audience doesn’t have to aimlessly wander through the wilderness to see If the situational— like, what is the situational example? Like, what are they doing? And they made it easy for you as the viewer, the audience, to see the situational example. The fasteners, this and that, whatever, were in the working, living environment. So they weren’t like in a studio with a white drape in a sterile environment. They had created a situational example, right?

Erik Jensen [00:26:55 – 00:27:08]

Yeah. Easy, easy to see. And again, that gives me the pattern a little bit more clearly rather than a theoretical pattern. I can see that here’s the pattern, right? It gives me more data points.

Stephen Woessner [00:27:08 – 00:27:33]

So go back to when you said authority is part of trust. You said at depth, and I was trying to get this down into my notes as quickly as possible. Let’s kind of come full circle here because your example about the deck, I think, is going to be a good illustration of when you said, at depth consistently, and I only got a couple of those. So what were all of those ingredients? Because now our audience hearing you say that again, after having heard you talk about the deck example, would be like, oh, okay, well that makes sense.

Erik Jensen [00:27:33 – 00:27:45]

Check, check, check, check, check. Great. So again, authority, it’s that your ability to teach at depth with impact to a specific audience consistently.

Stephen Woessner [00:27:45 – 00:27:46]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:27:46 – 00:27:55]

Okay. Um, because, right, when, when you’re doing this right, a, a bridge shows how your authority applies to me and my needs.

Stephen Woessner [00:27:56 – 00:27:56]

Yep.

Erik Jensen [00:27:57 – 00:28:26]

It shows that you can do it and perform this for other people, right? Not just that, like, in theory, I know how to do this. Again, that goes back to that example of like, uh, you know, a nurse or a doctor that doesn’t take care of themselves, telling me in theory how you can do it versus I actually do it, I perform it. for myself and for other people, and that other people trust you to do those things. So the trust bridge is a little bit like that bridge in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, right?

Stephen Woessner [00:28:27 – 00:28:27]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:28:27 – 00:28:51]

So Harrison Ford needs to cross this chasm, right? And it looks impossible because there’s no way they can jump it. There’s, you know, it’s just not, it’s on the edge of a cliff. I mean, as someone who doesn’t really love heights, that scene is a little bit like nauseating, right? And the bridge is just invisible. It’s camouflaged. Sorry, that is a spoiler alert if you’ve never seen this movie. I think it’s been out long enough. I—

Stephen Woessner [00:28:51 – 00:28:53]

Came out in 1989, everyone. So come on.

Erik Jensen [00:28:53 – 00:28:54]

Okay, perfect.

Stephen Woessner [00:28:54 – 00:28:54]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:28:54 – 00:29:14]

So it’s, it’s been out long enough. I, I don’t feel too bad, but the bridge is invisible. It’s camouflaged from his perspective. Okay. And again, that’s the audience perspective. That’s, that’s your audience’s perspective. They don’t know who to trust. Anybody, anybody and everybody is saying That they’re the best, they’re amazing, they can do incredible things.

Erik Jensen [00:29:15 – 00:29:51]

Okay. But once they throw sand on this bridge, suddenly this bridge that was invisible, it was camouflaged, becomes very clear, right? The sand built a pattern over this otherwise invisible thing that we can go, oh, well, there it is. Now, Harrison Ford might’ve been brave enough to step out into the abyss. And you’re certainly going to have organizations and customers that are willing to do that. Lovely. Okay? And you kind of need that, especially when you’re starting an organization. But then they threw sand on the bridge. The others needed to see the sand.

Stephen Woessner [00:29:52 – 00:29:52]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:29:52 – 00:30:16]

They needed to see that the bridge was there. They needed to go, oh, okay, there is proof. There was evidence before they were willing to make that leap of faith. And for many organizations, that leap of faith is That’s what hiring you is, right? I mean, especially for agencies, if you’re working, uh, you know, a CMO is in the position to hire you. Guys, churn rate for CMOs is high.

Stephen Woessner [00:30:17 – 00:30:17]

Yeah, right.

Erik Jensen [00:30:18 – 00:30:21]

Their tenure is, is short.

Stephen Woessner [00:30:21 – 00:30:21]

Yep.

Erik Jensen [00:30:22 – 00:30:50]

Right. About 2 years. They get very few bad decisions, very few mistakes before That’s it. So hiring an agency is one of those really big, critical decisions. And they kind of do, they feel like they’re stepping out into the abyss. That’s why they want to see spec work. That’s why they want to see all of the things that you’ve gotten. That’s why they want to see the case studies.

Erik Jensen [00:30:50 – 00:31:25]

They’re doing their best to mitigate a bad decision. They’re looking for the pattern. Okay. But your pattern can’t be, we’re cool, look at all the things. The pattern needs to show them what they actually care about. So if what they’re interested in is our type of organization, your pattern better show them that type of organization. If the pattern they’re looking for is, I need to solve this problem, you’re— then what you present should show you solving that problem, not Well, we solve that problem. We also solve a different problem.

Erik Jensen [00:31:25 – 00:32:08]

We also solve a different problem. We also solve a different problem. Right now, instead of feeling really confident that you can solve that problem, like we do this all day, every day, I’m like, well, one of those things applied to me, and I really hope that that is an indicator of a pattern I can trust. They have a pattern of success, but they don’t necessarily have a pattern To solve the thing that I want to solve. They have a bullet point. They have a single point in the field. That’s not a pattern. You need at least 2 points to show a pattern, right? But the bigger the pattern set, the more reliably I can make those decisions.

Erik Jensen [00:32:09 – 00:32:36]

Um, and so again, this gets back to that question that I asked earlier of what is the pattern that your audience needs you to build? To feel confident that you are the right choice. Knowing your stuff, being an authority in your field, fantastic. That is critical. You’ve got to have that down. But then how are you doing showing that consistently to the things that they care about?

Stephen Woessner [00:32:37 – 00:33:25]

Okay. I think you just teed up with that statement right there and question for our audience. I think you just teed up the question that I want to ask you. And so let’s, let’s peel this another couple layers. When you said, what is the pattern your audience needs you to build? How does our audience, the agency owners, leaders, and teammates that are listening to you right now, who are listening to you right now, how do they find out? How do they find out what their prospects want to see as it relates to a pattern? We’ll get to the building piece here in a little bit, but how do they discover that? How do they figure that out with some level of certainty that they’re essentially constructing the right pattern?

Erik Jensen [00:33:27 – 00:33:37]

Yeah, um, it can be challenging if you are a generalist agency. I’ll just put that out there right now.

Stephen Woessner [00:33:39 – 00:33:39]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:33:39 – 00:33:48]

Okay. Um, so again, we’ll, we’ll go back to the, the decking example, uh, just because I, I like to reuse examples because we don’t have to set the stage each time.

Stephen Woessner [00:33:48 – 00:33:48]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:33:49 – 00:33:59]

So if I was someone that lived in Arizona, okay, one of the things that I learned about that is PVC is probably not the right choice for material for me.

Stephen Woessner [00:33:59 – 00:33:59]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:33:59 – 00:34:29]

Because in the heat test, it melted. It actually sags so much it broke. Um, it was incredibly hot to the touch. So if I’m going to live in an environment where there’s lots of sun coming down, that’d be a problem. Okay. Whereas some of the other materials would be great, like natural wood and some of the composites, but even composites, you know, held heat a little bit differently. But up north, very different. We got heat and cold, a lot of wet, all those, all those pieces.

Erik Jensen [00:34:29 – 00:35:01]

So if you don’t know where it is that you’re, who it is that you’re trying to serve, like that, that niche, It’s a lot harder for you to look for the things that they’re going to care about. So for instance, I would’ve never even thought about the question, well, how hot is the decking going to get? I’m like, I’m in Minnesota. I want to make sure that the decking is not going to like come off my deck and destroy its fasteners from, from expanding and shrinking all the time.

Stephen Woessner [00:35:01 – 00:35:01]

Right.

Erik Jensen [00:35:02 – 00:35:39]

Right. I’m not worried about like when I step onto the deck, maybe it’s going to be hot. Or it’s going to sag because it gets that hot. That’s just not even something that I would consider. So if you’re trying to solve a bunch of different evidence and proof points for audiences in different target markets, audiences with different needs, et cetera, it’s going to be really difficult to build that pattern of evidence quickly. Now, I know that the decking example is a really simple one and they were able to talk about different situations, but for most marketing agencies, you’re not talking about something as simple as Which material do you want? That’s, that’s like asking what color do you want on your website?

Stephen Woessner [00:35:39 – 00:35:39]

Hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:35:40 – 00:36:34]

Right? I mean, agencies are solving really big sticky problems for their audience. So first you got to choose where you’re going to be niching down in order to be able to solve those specific problems and showcase that specific use case. Okay. And then within that, you can very quickly start to see the patterns and the problems that they’re associated with, the terminology that they use, right? So acquisition cost is really important in some industries, right? Or cost to acquire a customer is a different way to say that, but that’s completely different audience. Getting specced and installed and considered. Well, that’s really important in the AEC space.

Stephen Woessner [00:36:36 – 00:36:36]

Yep.

Erik Jensen [00:36:36 – 00:37:37]

Okay. Those are the problems that they face. And the people that they need to talk to is very different, right? So are you in the consumer packaged goods? Well, then maybe you need to be able to understand how, how, you know, moms think about buying products for the house. Whereas if you’re in the AEC space, you got to think about how like architects and engineers are going to interface with your, your, your product. So unless, unless you can talk about those specific things and you know that about your audience, how are you going to possibly show case studies, show stories, show evidence, show proof, use the language that they use, use the terminology that they use. Talk about the people that they need to influence. How can you possibly do that with any sort of specificity? Well, if you don’t have that specificity, what pattern are you building? You’re not really building much of a pattern of proof.

Stephen Woessner [00:37:37 – 00:37:37]

Yep.

Erik Jensen [00:37:37 – 00:38:19]

That you can help this particular audience solve this particular issue in this particular way. What you’re saying is we’re really great people and we do generically great work. trust us, even though I haven’t necessarily earned it yet, trust us, we can do amazing things for you. Whereas the person that is very specific, has all that language, has all those, those, uh, points, has all those case studies, uses all that language, et cetera. Now when they say, trust us, we, we know where you’re at. It’s night and day, the difference. Like one of them, Build trust. One of them scattered sand on the invisible bridge.

Erik Jensen [00:38:20 – 00:38:23]

The other is saying, take a leap of faith.

Stephen Woessner [00:38:26 – 00:39:15]

Yeah. And in the sales process, in the, as we like to say, activating the latent demand, when you try to activate latent demand, everyone, and that trust doesn’t exist and your prospects don’t walk across the trust bridge because candidly, the trust bridge isn’t there or, or there might be big holes in it. Because you haven’t done the things that Eric just articulated, and then you don’t get a response from prospects who are not willing to accept your invitation to walk to the right side of the ecosystem, the demand side, what they’re actually silently saying to you, because maybe some would reply and say this to you, but most of them won’t. But what they’re saying in their silence, what feels like a lack of response, Is, I don’t believe you. Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:39:16 – 00:39:25]

And I don’t have the time, energy, or desire to go and confirm for you that you are an expert because you’ve not made it easy for me to see the pattern. Ooh.

Stephen Woessner [00:39:27 – 00:39:30]

Okay. I love what you just said there.

Erik Jensen [00:39:32 – 00:39:47]

Yeah. People are busy. I’m not going to go and Make the case for you. That’s our job, right? Your job is to make the case for me so that I can decide easily.

Stephen Woessner [00:39:49 – 00:40:38]

So I wonder if, I wonder if there’s a way to hook this back into data. And here’s, so when I first asked you about trust superpower, data was one of the first words that you shared with us. And so, so when you’re thinking about the journey that a prospect is going to take from the left side, Experiencing the authority, trying to walk across the bridge, getting to the right side, the demand side. What are some of the, maybe pattern is the word, maybe it’s shift, maybe it’s data points, whatever it is, what is lying in the data that essentially says, hmm, this might be taking place? Like what, what does that shift look like in The data, if anything is, if anything is observational at all.

Erik Jensen [00:40:39 – 00:41:06]

Yeah. So basically what I, and I want to make sure that I, I’m understanding this. So you’re saying like, okay, I’m an authority. I have that. Um, you know, I’m putting out great content. I’m teaching, I’m doing all the things I want to be in demand. How do I, how do I know that someone is going from like a passive consumer of my content to Now I’m leaning in and I’m starting to actually trust you as an organization, like someone that I might want to buy from.

Stephen Woessner [00:41:07 – 00:41:15]

Yeah, because my, my sense is, and maybe you’ll tell me that I’m wrong, my sense is it’s more than just a HubSpot or keep lead score.

Erik Jensen [00:41:16 – 00:42:13]

It is, although those are lovely, those are great. So I don’t want to necessarily, you know, mitigate those because honestly, if most agencies were even doing that, that would be, that would be great. Many of them are, are not. So the biggest shift in moving from kind of the passive to the, I’m starting to trust you, usually comes from contact. So trust precedes contact. You know that you have developed trust if there is contact now more than ever, right? So again, depending on the study, between 75 to 85% of the buyer journey is completed before you know someone is interested in you. Meaning that they have already done their due diligence. Once they’ve overcome that barrier, the strongest indicator, like I said, is, is they reach out, they respond to an email, they chat on social, they ask you a question, they fill out a contact us form, they show up to an event.

Erik Jensen [00:42:14 – 00:42:25]

They, they respond in some way. And, and in, in, and, and they move out of the tree line, right?

Stephen Woessner [00:42:25 – 00:42:25]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:42:26 – 00:42:37]

And so what triggers that is a combination of need on their part. Okay. If I’m not hungry, I’m not going to go, um, buy food.

Stephen Woessner [00:42:38 – 00:42:38]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:42:40 – 00:43:17]

And having the right door open for them to walk through. Okay. So you don’t know when their need is going to happen. You can get some general indicators, right? You can know that like, you know, certain organizations might be up for annual reviews at this time, or large contracts might be coming through at this time, or, you know, there’s a seasonality to work that they do. And that’s lovely, right? But, you know, you don’t necessarily know exactly when that, that need is going to happen. But you can control the doors.

Stephen Woessner [00:43:17 – 00:43:17]

Mm-hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:43:18 – 00:43:20]

You can control the doors and make sure that they’re visible.

Stephen Woessner [00:43:21 – 00:43:21]

Mm-hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:43:21 – 00:44:02]

When you need them. So that 75 to 85% of that buyer journey is largely invisible except for those passive metrics, the email opens, the website visits, the, the, you know, the social media engagements and all of that, which is why those are good leading indicators to follow. Okay. But in each one of those, you should be constantly putting out and testing, opening the door to something more. So here’s an example of kind of a difference. Let’s, let’s go through with a typical agency newsletter.

Stephen Woessner [00:44:03 – 00:44:03]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:44:03 – 00:44:25]

Typical agency newsletter is like, hey, here’s some amazing things. Um, you know, here’s a link to a blog, here’s a link to a video we did, here’s a link to some, uh, some information that we gathered, et cetera. Right. And then kind of like buried somewhere in there is the, and by the way, we’re open to a call. He’s like, yep. Okay. And that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Erik Jensen [00:44:26 – 00:44:52]

And having those kind of lower-level, low-hanging fruit doors is fine. But, you know, reading comprehension is not that great. A lot of people don’t read thoroughly. A lot of people don’t remember or understand what they read. And what they do read and understand, they forget. Largely after, you know, a relatively short period of time. I don’t, I don’t remember the stats, but it’s staggering. It’s like 90% of what you hear is gone within 3 days or something.

Stephen Woessner [00:44:52 – 00:44:52]

Right.

Erik Jensen [00:44:52 – 00:45:21]

Yeah. So, so sometimes you just need to be blunt. You just need, you just need to say, here’s the door, right? Not in a salesy way, like we want to pitch to you. Okay, I get that. Like, ask them a really insightful question. Hey, what’s going on here? What do you think of this? What do you— how is this new thing that’s happening in technology or the news impacting your, your business?

Stephen Woessner [00:45:23 – 00:45:23]

Okay.

Erik Jensen [00:45:25 – 00:45:53]

Give them an opportunity to join you in something that’s not so passive. Are you teaching? Are you doing webinars? Are you at an event? And, and maybe they’re going to be there too. Like, hey, I’m going to be here. Would love to chat with you. Love to meet you in person. Right? Are you doing things like, hey, we would love to have you as a guest on our podcast. We would love to interview you for a blog post. We’d love to see and get the insights that you have.

Erik Jensen [00:45:54 – 00:46:20]

Hey, we’re doing research. We just fielded some research, but we’d love to do some initial conversations with people beforehand. Like, Open some doors. Not everybody’s going to walk through those doors. I get that. But you need to make sure that the doors are really visible. And as soon as someone goes, yeah, I’d do that, boom, there’s your indicator that it’s shifted to they’re consuming content, to they’re leaning in.

Stephen Woessner [00:46:22 – 00:46:39]

Okay. But I’m also noticing that you’re using the plural version of door. So it’s, it’s, it’s about like, you know, yes, the right door open for them to walk through. But so let’s, let’s continue the door metaphor.

Erik Jensen [00:46:39 – 00:46:43]

Okay, great. Is it continuing contractor sort of thing, right? AEs, Bs, and DECs?

Stephen Woessner [00:46:44 – 00:47:01]

And is it, is it one door? Is it a hallway of doors that are actually related to one another because you set those doors, you placed the doors With intentionality. It’s not a random set of doors. Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:47:01 – 00:47:39]

So it’s not a random set of doors. And I love this question because it lets me break out one of the visual analogies that I really like. It’s not one door. You were correct. It’s not actually a hallway of doors. What I want you to imagine is a tall building. And on the outside of that building, the stairwell going up. Okay? How many businesses and agencies work is they’ve got a door at the bottom, low context, low relationship, low risk, very passive.

Erik Jensen [00:47:40 – 00:47:40]

Okay?

Stephen Woessner [00:47:41 – 00:47:41]

Mm-hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:47:42 – 00:47:54]

Like, read our stuff, the blogs, videos, all that stuff. Lovely. And then they go up 20 flights of stairs, And there’s a door at the top of the building that says, give us money. Okay.

Stephen Woessner [00:47:54 – 00:47:54]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:47:55 – 00:48:34]

All right. So in between, there’s not a lot of options as far as like, how do I develop context with you? How do I get to know you? How do I confirm this pattern that I see? How do I make sure that this is the right choice? All right. So what we recommend, we call them transitional moments, but, but these, these elements where someone can go through and prove to you that that journey is shifting, right? From, yep, I trust that you are a good source of information, to I’m trusting you, to yep, I really want to work with you. Okay.

Stephen Woessner [00:48:34 – 00:48:35]

Mm-hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:48:35 – 00:48:44]

Um, you’re, you’re crafting those at different elevations of relationship, and that’s why I’m imagining you going up some stairs rather than just down a hallway.

Stephen Woessner [00:48:45 – 00:49:11]

Okay. So hang on just one second. So different elevation of relationship, like there’s some big lessons in there. So like peel, peel that back a little bit more so that we’re not— so because what you’re suggesting here is really big. This is a big lesson, a big learning opportunity here. It’s not about just putting another content piece in their path. You’re talking about something much more, much more helpful and contextually relationship-wise, Much deeper.

Erik Jensen [00:49:12 – 00:49:40]

Yes. So you want to look at those for what they change in the relationship. So I’ll just use some really simple examples and then, and then we’ll go from there. Okay. So signing up for your newsletter, very passive. There’s a little bit of trust there in order to do that. And obviously you want to treat that with respect and show up in a good way so that you can show up with consistency, build that pattern of You know, we give good information. We’re smart.

Erik Jensen [00:49:40 – 00:49:52]

We know that. Okay. That’s, that’s low level. I don’t have to talk to you. I don’t, I don’t know what you look like. I don’t know what you sound like. Um, I don’t know how you treat other people. I don’t, I don’t know how you would treat me.

Erik Jensen [00:49:52 – 00:49:57]

Like there’s, there’s no context, right? All I can tell is, do you know stuff or not?

Stephen Woessner [00:49:58 – 00:49:58]

Yeah.

Erik Jensen [00:49:58 – 00:50:39]

Do you consistently send out a newsletter or does your, you know, monthly newsletter come out twice a year? Do you, um, you know, are you talking about stuff that I already know, or are you talking about stuff that I’m like, ooh, I need to learn that? Okay. So those are all good indicators that tell, that teach me and tell me, show me a pattern of, are you the right choice or not? But there’s still big gaps that are missing. So then the next thing might be like, okay, watching a video of you. Well, now I know what you at least sound like and look like. I can use a bunch of other visual cues to start to build some of that pattern. Are you actually good at teaching or do you just have a really good writer?

Stephen Woessner [00:50:40 – 00:50:41]

Hmm.

Erik Jensen [00:50:41 – 00:52:02]

Right? Because, because if I’m leaning into you to teach me and you stumble all over your words in a video and your writing is great, well, that’s maybe a disconnect if I’m, if I’m an audio learner, right? If, if I’m expecting to show up and, and get consulting in that way. So that would be building some of that pattern, right? And then I want to be able to go and I want to be able to, let’s say, register for a webinar. And well, now I get to maybe meet you in person. I get to see how you’re acting on the fly. I get to see how you engage with other people. Like all of those things, again, still build trust, but through every single one of those, I’m looking for the pattern. Are you consistently solving The problems that I want to solve? Are you consistently solving them for the sorts of organization that looks like me or the sort of person that looks like me? Are you consistently showing up in a way that I go, yep, you’re using the language, your stories are about people that are like me, you know the channels that my audience is on? You’re talking about reviews or testimonials that apply, not whatever is convenient, but you’re being consistent in building the pattern. You’re scattering the sand.

Stephen Woessner [00:52:02 – 00:52:03]

Yep.

Erik Jensen [00:52:03 – 00:52:44]

Okay. And it’s not that doing all of those things, it’s not that doing all of those things with different industries and different audiences and different whatevers is bad. Okay. It’s better than not doing it. It, if, if your choice is we’re not doing it at all and we can do it some, but we, we can do it with like these random examples and we’re going to be a little bit generic in our language and we’re going to do all that stuff, that’s still better. But what we’re saying is, and what we’re suggesting and what, you know, our experience shows to date is that this specificity makes the difference. Yeah.

Stephen Woessner [00:52:45 – 00:54:03]

And that’s— and that, I think you just actually put such a fine point on the thesis for why this podcast exists. It’s about not just how do we win more clients, it’s how do we move the agency into a position of being seen As in-demand, indispensable, invaluable. You don’t achieve that status in your market, friends, by accident. You achieve it on purpose, with intentionality, with creating patterns, with building a trust bridge, by making sure that the left side authority is also great, like the right side demand. And That you build a bridge as Eric helped you architect here in this conversation. And that only happens with intentionality by architecting it on purpose. Nobody looks at that building that Eric was talking about in the metaphor and like, oh wow, that just happened to be built like that. No, there was a specification.

Stephen Woessner [00:54:03 – 00:54:14]

There was an architect probably who designed it and a very specific materials selection and a general contractor who followed the blueprint. None of— they didn’t wake up one day and say, oh, well, that came together so great.

Erik Jensen [00:54:15 – 00:54:33]

Right. So they’re very specific about what they do, how they communicate it. And every door doesn’t have a different handle. Some doors don’t have locks and others don’t. They’re all painted different. There’s a consistency there to say, yep, you’re in the right place. This is what you can expect behind this door.

Stephen Woessner [00:54:33 – 00:55:27]

Unless of course we’re talking about the construction that is illustrated in The Money Pit in the Shirk Brothers and taking 2 weeks to put that house together and you’re like, wait a minute, is this actually— anyway, so I’m just going off on a tangent since we were talking about movies. So I know that we need to come in for a landing. So I’ll ask you this, then we’ll come in for a landing, and then everyone, Eric and I, will say goodbye and then Uh, and then I will be back, um, with some, some closing thoughts, um, about some of the insights and wisdom that Eric, uh, shared with us, um, during, during this conversation. Um, so, okay. Um, so here’s how I would love to come in for a landing, Eric, your thoughts around, let’s say that in an agency, um, an agency owner, a leader, a teammate, um, who’s listening to you right now.

Erik Jensen [00:55:27 – 00:55:27]

Yeah.

Stephen Woessner [00:55:28 – 00:55:47]

Let’s say that they do all the things. Let’s say that they take what you’ve generously shared. They take it, operationalize it. They take it, put it in content. They work hard at building the pattern. They work hard at recognizing, okay, we’ve built an authority position. Yay. Kind of maybe have some semblance of demand over here on the right.

Stephen Woessner [00:55:47 – 00:56:04]

Awesome. But boy, we need to put a bridge in place. So let’s say that they get the pattern right and they put the bridge into place. What changes for the agency? Like, like current state, future state, what changes for the agency if they get it right?

Erik Jensen [00:56:06 – 00:56:54]

Well, I mean, the simple answer is you make more money. Um, and that’s lovely. Uh, you’re, it’s a much, it’s a much more stable organization. So referrals for other people become easier. Um, and a little bit more consistent. Um, you are going to become a resource for those people that are actually really deep inside of your industry and are often influencers of decisions. Because if you’re super specific and you’re always talking about the things that matter, guess what? The nerds of that industry will come to get that information. And I don’t mean that in a bad way, right? But like, I don’t know, Stephen, when was the last time that you went out and read a technical programming blog? Right? Because it’s not, it’s not what you care about.

Erik Jensen [00:56:55 – 00:57:20]

Right. But, but if I was trying to influence people that were building websites, okay. Because I want to get a lot of people that are building new websites. I want my website to be that resource where they can come to and they can go, yeah, these guys really know what they’re talking about. Right. And then they’re going to be able to say, this is where it is. So, uh, you’re going to make more money. You’re going to make referrals a little bit easier.

Erik Jensen [00:57:20 – 00:58:40]

You’re going to make, um, you know, gatekeepers like what I just talked about, uh, more likely to say, no, these guys really know what they’re talking about. Uh, so they might be recommending you or at least not acting as gatekeepers. They might be opening the gate for you instead. Um, which is, which is always lovely. It also streamlines so much of Of how it is that you talk and so many business decisions of what are the stories that we tell? What is, what are the headlines that we use? What is the terminology that we use? Um, you know, so often instead of trying to be like, well, this industry talks about it this way and this industry talks about it this way, what’s the generic term in between that we can use that none of them use, right? But they’ll probably understand it. Just your, your ability to communicate clearly and in shorthand and using acronyms and insider baseball language and all of those other sorts of things, um, allows you to be much more precise in what it is that you’re talking about. And so it saves a lot of time, saves a lot of energy, and it increases the capacity and the understanding inside of your agency about that target. about those problems that you solve, so your team gets smarter too.

Stephen Woessner [00:58:41 – 00:59:38]

Thanks, partner, for joining us. I’ll respectfully disagree about trust and the superpower piece and the way that you answered it, but I think you were just being humble at the beginning. This is such a superpower for you. I think as a result of this conversation, we’re better. I think we now understand, certainly walking in, I think most people would say, Do you believe in the power of trust? Sure. Have they built it? Maybe, maybe not. I think because of the insights and wisdom that you shared in this conversation, I think our audience is in a better position now that if they have built a trust bridge, great, it can now be stronger as a result of what you shared. And if they haven’t started building a trust bridge yet, now one, they know because you’re Indiana Jones, reference that it does actually exist and then how to go about building it.

Stephen Woessner [00:59:38 – 00:59:46]

So thank you very much for your generosity, your time, sharing your expertise. As always, thanks very much, Eric.

Erik Jensen [00:59:47 – 01:00:00]

Absolutely. This was a lot of fun and hopefully it was useful. And I’ve got like, even as we’re bringing this conversation in for a close, I’ve got like a ton more things that I want to use for examples. But yeah, hopefully, hopefully it was useful.

Stephen Woessner [01:00:04 – 01:00:45]

Hey friends, I hope the conversation with Erik Jensen was as valuable for you as it was for me to have with him. And I want to take a few minutes here to highlight some of the key takeaways from our time with Erik, because there were several moments that I think deserve an even closer review. So my first big takeaway from Erik is this idea that trust is not built By saying that you’re trustworthy. It’s built by showing what you should be trusted for. And that is a big distinction. A lot of agencies have reviews on their website. They have values listed. They have testimonials, as Eric shared with us.

Stephen Woessner [01:00:45 – 01:01:59]

And of course, all of that is good. But Eric made the point that none of those things share with a prospect what you should be trusted for. Specifically. So the question for you and your team is, are you demonstrating trustworthiness in general, or are you building a specific body of work, body of proof around the exact problem your right-fit prospects need to have solved? Because those are 2 very different things. So my second big takeaway from Eric Is this idea that humans are looking for patterns and that we trust patterns more than unknowns, even negative patterns. Eric said something that I think is so important for agency owners to hear, which is why I’m reiterating it and emphasizing it again here. We trust negative patterns more than we trust the unknown. That is why prospects will sometimes stick with an agency that is not serving them well because at least the outcome is predictable, as ridiculous as that might sound.

Stephen Woessner [01:01:59 – 01:02:52]

And so if you’re a new option for a prospect, you are also the unknown. So your job is to build a pattern of proof that is specific enough and consistent enough that your prospect can look at it and say, Hmm. If that happened for them, it will happen for me. That’s the bridge. That’s what makes the invisible visible. All right. So here’s my third big takeaway and it has to do with the decking company example that Eric shared. So here’s a company that created YouTube content so specific, so on-the-nose helpful, That Eric, who candidly, friends, is a very tough sell, uh, by the way, said he would’ve called them for a bid if they were not in Canada.

Stephen Woessner [01:02:53 – 01:03:31]

And that is a transitional moment, a quality transitional moment in action. The content was not generic. It was not 5 tips for building a deck. It was fastener options, wood comparisons, expansion and contraction data. Cost breakdowns over 50 years, heat tests. It was so specific that it built a pattern of proof in a single piece of content. And it moved Eric from that, well, quote, that was interesting, end quote, to I need to talk to these people. And that’s what your content should be doing for prospects.

Stephen Woessner [01:03:32 – 01:04:02]

So here’s what I would encourage you to do this week. Go look at your content, your case studies, your webinars, your thought leadership, and ask yourself Eric’s question that he posed during the conversation. What is the pattern my audience needs me to build to feel confident that I am the right choice or that our agency is the right choice? If you can’t answer that question with specificity, That’s where the work begins.

Erik Jensen [01:04:03 – 01:04:03]

Okay.

Stephen Woessner [01:04:05 – 01:04:36]

Thank you for spending your time with Eric and me today. I hope this episode helped you see the trust bridge a little bit more clearly and gave you some practical ways to start building it inside your own authority-demand ecosystem. Friends, we all have the same 86,400 seconds in a day, and my team and I are grateful that you chose to spend some of your time today with us. Thank you so very much for that. Until next week, onward with gusto.