Agency Research Pioneer Susan Baier Uncovers Why Agencies Know the Playbook But Are Not Running the Plays

Stephen Woessner [00:00:08 – 00:00:52]

Over the past decade, we’ve had more than 1,200 conversations with CEOs, bestselling authors, and agency leaders. And here’s what we’re seeing. Agencies that had built an authority position no longer struggled to be seen. Instead, they struggled to activate latent demand. Agency leaders have said to us, it’s exactly where we’re sitting right now— authority without demand. So welcome to the In Demand Agency Podcast presented by Predictive ROI. It’s sparked by research from the Harvard Business Review, Edelman, Gallup, Agencycore, all showing that trust has moved upstream. In today’s marketplace, authority earns attention.

Susan Baier [00:00:52 – 00:00:53]

Yes.

Stephen Woessner [00:00:53 – 00:02:18]

But demand is what turns attention into action. Each episode deconstructs the science of demand from behavioral psychology, decision-making research, and the cross-industry strategies behind why and how B2B buyers make their decisions. We interview the world’s leading behavioral scientists, agency network leaders, and strategists from industries far beyond ours, experts who are reshaping how demand works. I’m your host, Steven Wessner, and in each episode, we’ll translate their insights directly into the agency world. And these conversations are now being heard by a community of over 30,000 agency owners and their teams. With me today is Susan Baier, founder and CEO of Audience Audit and co-founder of AgencyCORE, one of the largest ongoing studies of agency leaders in our industry. And as you heard in the introduction a few minutes ago, the ideas and research from the Harvard Business Review, Edelman, Gallup, and AgencyCORE helped spark the genesis of what has become the In Demand Agency Podcast. So it only seemed fitting that Susan would join me to share her insights and expertise.

Stephen Woessner [00:02:19 – 00:03:06]

Susan has surveyed over 1,200 agency leaders across 3 years of Agency Core research. And here are some of the highlights. Over 50% of agency leaders can identify the exact strategies they need to put into practice to achieve pipeline growth, revenue growth, and reputation growth. But fewer than 17% of agency leaders are fully implementing the strategies. So from a layperson’s perspective, my perspective, it sounds like agencies know the playbook but are not running the plays. And that gap between the recognition of knowing what to do and the action of doing the things is a portion of what Susan and I are going to deconstruct today.

Susan Baier [00:03:10 – 00:03:43]

It is no longer enough to be great at what you do. Other people have to know and say that you are great at what you do. And it has to be people that the audience you’re trying to reach already trusts. And we’ve got great data on that from agency clients about what makes them believe our expertise is real. But overwhelmingly what we’ve seen in the past, probably 3 to 5 years with the Agency Edge research with agency clients, is a trend toward wanting to know if you have a reputation among other trusted sources for what you do.

Stephen Woessner [00:03:46 – 00:03:50]

Susan, thanks for joining us. I am thrilled for our time together.

Susan Baier [00:03:51 – 00:03:55]

I am so tickled to be here. Congratulations on the new podcast. It’s great.

Stephen Woessner [00:03:55 – 00:03:57]

Love it. Well, thank you, my friend. Tickled?

Susan Baier [00:03:58 – 00:04:00]

Okay. Tickled. I’m tickled.

Stephen Woessner [00:04:01 – 00:04:45]

So before we, before we, um, slice apart and peel back all of the layers to Agency Core 2026, uh, in that study. And I’m so excited to get into all the different facets because it is just a brilliant study. Uh, before we do that, um, you know, you being relentlessly helpful, you diving into research, you sharing it in so many different levels and transparencies and visualizations and just this commitment to raising the bar of thought in our industry. Like, it is truly one of your superpowers. So share with our audience, how did that become a superpower, and when did you first recognize that it was a superpower of yours? Because it totally is.

Susan Baier [00:04:46 – 00:05:27]

Well, thank you for saying that. I’m not sure I’ve thought of it that way, as a superpower, um, but I, I think some of it was just serendipity. You know, I have always loved research and data. I used it when I was in agencies, I used it when I was client side. And when I started my own agency, I was doing research, you know, for clients, but the bulk of it was stuff that they were just keeping to themselves, right? To support strategic decision-making, et cetera. But in, I guess it was probably like 2012 or 2013, I went to an agency conference. I met Drew McClellan from Agency Management Institute. Mm-hmm.

Susan Baier [00:05:28 – 00:06:09]

And we started talking about doing some work for agencies, for the industry, to benefit agency leaders. And in 2014, we published the first of those studies, which was the Agency Edge. And we’ve now done 13 of them. We just released the most recent in May, annual. They study agency clients and what’s going on in the industry. And we’ve learned a lot over the years. And one of the things I learned was how powerful that was in helping Drew build his community and build his reputation. You know, he’s got a conference now, the Build a Better Agency Summit, that’s very popular among agency leaders.

Susan Baier [00:06:09 – 00:06:50]

We release the research every year at that summit. And it just was, it just demonstrated this, this concept that generosity with data that you’ve got to help the people that you want to serve, the impact that that can have. And about 10 years ago, I really pivoted my agency to doing mostly that work. About 80% of the research that we do now is, is thought leadership research for our clients. In addition to the 2 studies that I do every year, or 3 or 4, I can’t remember. It might be 4 now. For agencies. But, you know, I think, I think some of it is just a moment in time.

Susan Baier [00:06:50 – 00:07:30]

Trust is collapsing. We know over the last, certainly decade, but most probably most deeply over the last few years. And it is harder these days to get seen, to get found, to be trusted, and to get the attention of the people that we want to help. And I guess this kind of work has just turned out to be a really good way to make that happen. Even more so in the age of AI, right? AI loves data. It loves research. It loves numbers. And we’ve got data now showing that having research gets you seen.

Susan Baier [00:07:30 – 00:07:53]

It makes you more visible when folks are using AI to search for solutions to the problems that they’re having. So I think some of it was just as I said, serendipity about sort of having a deep bench in this kind of work and then seeing it become more and more prevalent as it became harder for other things to differentiate you and get you, get you visible.

Stephen Woessner [00:07:55 – 00:08:42]

Yeah, this is so good. Such a great way to, to kick us off too. And, and, and like when you said that trust is collapsing, harder to, to get trusted or to become trusted, That made me think of, you know, our conversation maybe a month and a half or so ago, uh, during one of our workshops when we were working through or talking through, excuse me, um, a data point from Edelman, LinkedIn, that partnership where they talked about how 86% of hidden buyers want the, want your expertise served up in a certain way. They want it served up in a certain way that challenges status quo. They don’t want the vanilla idea. They want fresh perspectives. And so, yeah, it’s harder to get trusted and the expectations of trust are much higher.

Susan Baier [00:08:43 – 00:09:18]

They’re much higher. Yep. Yep, absolutely. I mean, we’ve all been slammed with seeing stuff that we can’t trust, hearing things that we can’t trust. We know Edelman found back in 2025 that 59% of buyers assume that we’re lying to them to get their money. And so we’re coming at our prospects not from sort of a, a ground-level baseline of trust. We’re actually— they’re approaching us with a sense of distrust that we have to overcome before they could even start to see building trust in us. So it’s just harder to do.

Susan Baier [00:09:18 – 00:09:57]

I think AI has exacerbated that problem. Anybody can spin up an agency over the weekend and look just as professional as the next guy. But we see some very clear clues, and more than clues, actually data among agency clients about what makes them trust us and what makes them believe us and what makes them want to check us out. So I know we’ll talk about some of that data today, but things have changed. And luckily for me, I guess, research continues to prove out in terms of making, making that problem a little easier to tackle for an agency.

Stephen Woessner [00:09:57 – 00:10:10]

Amen. And when you said that, when you mentioned the AI piece, that made me think of something that Hannah Roth, Chief Strategy Officer here at Predictive, one of my business partners, someone who you know very, very well.

Susan Baier [00:10:11 – 00:10:12]

Also a data nerd.

Stephen Woessner [00:10:12 – 00:10:37]

Also a data nerd. Yes. Data scientist by trade. She is— almost sounded like Yoda there. And but one of the things that she said during our conversation, she said, and we were talking about AI, She said it’s super easy today to be prolific, but that doesn’t mean that you can be profound just as easy, right? Right. Let’s not be prolific. Let’s be profound. So what, what, what, what would be your take on that?

Susan Baier [00:10:38 – 00:10:55]

I, I think that it is, it is no longer enough to be great at what you do. Other people have to know and say that you are great at what you do. And it has to be people that the audience you’re trying to reach already trusts.

Stephen Woessner [00:10:56 – 00:10:57]

Okay.

Susan Baier [00:10:58 – 00:12:07]

And we’ve got great data on that from agency clients about what makes them believe our expertise is real that we’ll talk about today. But overwhelmingly, what we’ve seen in the past probably 3 to 5 years with the Agency Edge research with agency clients Is a trend toward wanting to know if you have a reputation among other trusted sources for what you do. It’s not enough to say I’m the best at this because anybody can say that. And it’s sometimes very difficult to tell if they’re right or not until you’ve already paid them a bunch of money. And then you found— find out that maybe they’re not. But one thing that people are doing is having more trust in individuals that they know, that they’ve worked with, that they hear from others are terrific, you know, and that’s a, I think, a big shift for agencies to think about in terms of who are you actually, who do you need to be talking to? Who do you need to be demonstrating your expertise and your depth to? And certainly your prospects are one option, but the people that influence your prospects might be even more important. Okay.

Stephen Woessner [00:12:07 – 00:12:54]

So I’m wondering if there’s a I probably shouldn’t use the word correlation. As a layperson, I’ll use the word correlation, and you’ll probably correct me. I’ll correct you if you’re wrong. But with what you just said about, and I was getting into my notes, and I’m paraphrasing here, that it’s no longer enough to be great at what you do. And then that made me think of, you know, one of the insights from this year’s study. So I’m looking right now at your challenges are growing, and I’m seeing the 2022, 2025, and 2026, and I’m looking specifically at differentiation. So in 2025, respondents are saying, yeah, you know, we’re 33%. I think if I’m interpreting this right, 33% in 2025, agencies are saying, yeah, differentiation is a challenge.

Stephen Woessner [00:12:55 – 00:12:55]

And then in 2026—

Susan Baier [00:12:55 – 00:12:56]

A severe challenge.

Stephen Woessner [00:12:56 – 00:13:19]

A severe challenge. Okay. And then in 2026, that number went up from 33% in ’25 to 49% in ’26, which is a 48% increase in that, you know, severe challenge. And so, when I, when I, when I hear you say no longer enough to be great at what you do, and then also I see differentiation is on the minds of a large group of respondents to the survey.

Susan Baier [00:13:20 – 00:13:20]

Yeah.

Stephen Woessner [00:13:20 – 00:13:22]

Like, yeah, you can’t just stand out ’cause you’re good.

Susan Baier [00:13:23 – 00:13:42]

No, you can’t. Because lots of people say they’re good now, and it’s very easy to, to have the polish that makes you look good. You can, have AI write things and be better than your writing. You can have a website that looks really sparkling. So it’s just, it, it’s just harder. And at the same time, our audience is more skeptical.

Stephen Woessner [00:13:42 – 00:13:42]

Hmm.

Susan Baier [00:13:43 – 00:14:32]

You know, they have the same experience we do where something can sound pretty good or look pretty good or look real, and then you find out that it isn’t. And, and, you know, that increase in the challenge of demonstrating our competitive advantage or differentiation as an agency That is a very significant increase from what we saw in 2025. And in 2022, it was 36%. So it was pretty stable between ’22 and ’25. And then we’re up at 50% this year. And it’s, it’s, it’s not the only challenge that’s up, but it’s, to me, there’s something that I also associate with what’s happening to trust and the impact the impact that AI has had coming into this landscape of trust to further denigrate it.

Stephen Woessner [00:14:33 – 00:15:10]

Okay. So then, so would it be— so, so correct me in what I’m about to say, because I, because I think you’ll probably— when I say twist it or tweak it, I mean that in a positive way. Would it be fair to say then if agencies want to differentiate themselves more, that it’s not about features, advantages, benefits, and so forth. It’s about telling a trust-based story or providing helpful insights that then build trust further upstream. That’s how you create differentiation. Or am I looking at that wrong? How, how would you say that better?

Susan Baier [00:15:11 – 00:15:37]

I think the, the data we have from clients says that today’s differentiation is expertise and, and, and strategic depth, strategic chops. Everybody knows that there are a lot of things that AI or, you know, younger people in your agency, inexperienced people, contractors, whatever, can do tactically.

Stephen Woessner [00:15:37 – 00:15:38]

Okay.

Susan Baier [00:15:38 – 00:16:48]

Right? But it can’t duplicate 30 years of experience in your niche. It can’t duplicate having worked with hundreds of Banks as an agency or nonprofits or whatever, right? So when we talk to clients now, what they are really wanting out of agencies is the strategic component of it. And, and that is a key element to differentiation. Now, that being said, you can’t just say we’re strategic because the other thing clients want is know what you’re strategic in. Where is your expertise? Where’s that niche? Because if you just say, hey, we’re really strategic and we have great customer service, you sound like, I mean, those sound like every other agency out there, right? So it’s really about, you know, what I’m telling my clients these days with respect to what we learned from the Agency Core and then the Agency Edge talking to clients is that Future-proofing for an agency right now, based on the data, depends on building a trusted reputation.

Stephen Woessner [00:16:49 – 00:16:49]

Okay.

Susan Baier [00:16:50 – 00:17:23]

For specialized strategic expertise and demonstrating it before the prospect has to talk to us. That’s, that’s it. A trusted reputation for specialized strategic expertise that they can see before they have to contact us. And we’ve got data on both the client side and the agency side of that equation that tells us a lot about what’s going on with agencies right now and their relationships with clients.

Stephen Woessner [00:17:24 – 00:17:40]

Okay. I, I, I love how you knitted this together. Uh, let’s see, I tried to write this down really quickly. So trusted reputation for specialized strategic expertise and demonstrating it Before they ever get in touch with us.

Susan Baier [00:17:41 – 00:18:05]

Yep. Yep. That’s, that’s the secret sauce right there. Now, that’s not going to happen overnight, and it’s, it’s not going to happen without intention, right? And one of the things we see in the research with agency, with agency leaders this year is how many agencies are struggling to do those things, even if they’re very good at what they do.

Stephen Woessner [00:18:06 – 00:18:08]

Okay. So tell, tell, tell me more about that.

Susan Baier [00:18:09 – 00:18:35]

Well, if you think about a trusted reputation, right? That’s, it, it, it’s not just you saying you’re great. It’s, it’s other people saying you’re great. All right. Other people that your audience respects. The challenge is that we’re not very good at doing that as agencies. When you look at the data, we see, let me find it here. Here it is. I’m looking at my stats here.

Susan Baier [00:18:35 – 00:19:10]

Okay. So 87 of us, 87% of agency leaders say an agency’s reputation as an expert is what clients value most. And they are correct. They are correct in that, right? However, only 20% of us say that our agency is very good at building that reputation, right? So we are confident in our capabilities, in our expertise and our depth of experience. Okay. Right. The problem is nobody else is seeing it except the clients who pay us to work with them.

Stephen Woessner [00:19:12 – 00:19:12]

Fascinating.

Susan Baier [00:19:12 – 00:19:17]

Okay. So, so how’s a prospect, how’s a prospect gonna know?

Stephen Woessner [00:19:17 – 00:19:17]

Yeah.

Susan Baier [00:19:18 – 00:19:46]

That, right. Um, and the, the way they wanna know it Is that someone else they trust in their industry, in their niche, says it about us. Well, how many of us are building those relationships so that somebody else in the industry we serve or in the niche we serve, um, says, hey, you know what, you really need to talk to Stephen and his team at Predictive ROI because they are the best at this.

Stephen Woessner [00:19:48 – 00:19:53]

So this is going to be a ridiculous example, and, and it’ll make you laugh and probably roll your eyes and say, why did I say yes to being a guest on his show?

Susan Baier [00:19:55 – 00:19:55]

Anyone.

Stephen Woessner [00:19:56 – 00:20:47]

Uh, but, but in a, in a very, you know, sort of crude layperson, um, interpretation of what you just said is that nobody hires the out-of-shape personal trainer. Nobody’s, nobody’s looking at me, walking up to me at a conference and saying, can you show me how to get 6-pack abs? Now the reality is I can. Like, I know the recipe, I know the playbook, I know the exercises, I know the sets, I know the nutritional strategy, but the reality is I like Mountain Dew and Pop-Tarts way too much. So I do not have six-pack abs. So nobody’s walking up to me and hiring me and saying, hey, would you be my personal trainer? Nobody hires the out-of-shape personal trainer. And so if we’re not building the trusted reputation for specialized expertise and demonstrating that in full transparency upstream, then you’re too late.

Susan Baier [00:20:48 – 00:21:20]

Yeah, I’m going to push back on you though. So I had a yoga instructor for many years. I did yoga with my mother-in-law, right? And I looked for a yoga instructor and I had a number of people tell me, you got to go to this, this gal. This is an amazing, she’s an amazing yoga instructor. And I was like, okay. And I showed up for the first class, first class. And she was a middle-aged kind of lumpy, frumpy woman. Not what I had envisioned as like a world-class yoga instructor.

Susan Baier [00:21:21 – 00:21:58]

Um, and I worked with her for 8 years and she was extraordinary because she really had done all the training. She’d done all this kind of stuff. She was an outstanding yoga instructor, but she didn’t look like one necessarily. But somebody else told me that she was, and I trusted them. So I think if somebody else told me, Stephen, you know what, he doesn’t look like he’s a 6-pack ab guy and he likes Pop-Tarts, uh, but trust me on this, he knows exactly what to do and he can get you in shape. I would do that. And so I, I, I think there’s—

Stephen Woessner [00:21:58 – 00:22:00]

You’re, you’re being very kind.

Susan Baier [00:22:00 – 00:22:23]

I think there’s, I, let me put it this way. I think, I think there are certainly circumstances and differentiation is one of ’em where prospects can look at us as an agency and go, is this the right agency to help us differentiate. And if they look generic and aren’t even differentiating themselves, who’s gonna hire them for that? Right? Okay.

Stephen Woessner [00:22:23 – 00:22:59]

So fair, fair point. Was literally having a conversation with an agency recently, and I know that you’ve heard this a bazillion times. We’ve heard it a bazillion times where the agency says, ugh, you know, I know I should be doing that. Uh-huh. But you know, we’re the cobbler’s kids. I’m like, yes, but unless you can demonstrate the specialized expertise and, and then eat your own dog food, not just teach, but then do. And if you’re not doing it for yourself, I think clients, the expectation is so high that I’m like, wait a minute, you’re trying to sell this to me, but you’re not doing it for you.

Susan Baier [00:23:00 – 00:23:03]

Right. It’s like, I’m not going to hire a web dev agency if their website sucks.

Stephen Woessner [00:23:04 – 00:23:08]

No one’s coming to you for research if you weren’t doing research.

Susan Baier [00:23:09 – 00:23:09]

Right.

Stephen Woessner [00:23:10 – 00:23:10]

Right.

Susan Baier [00:23:10 – 00:23:23]

And, and, and showing research ideally. But I think that there’s this balance. Yes, we have to live up to it. Yes, we have to be able to honestly show our clients that we can do the work that they want us to do for them.

Stephen Woessner [00:23:24 – 00:23:24]

Amen.

Susan Baier [00:23:24 – 00:23:50]

Right. And that trust is even stronger if someone else says, oh yeah, they’re great. That’s exactly what they do. Right. So again, build a trusted reputation, right, for specialized strategic expertise and let them see it before they have to give us their credit card.

Stephen Woessner [00:23:50 – 00:24:14]

So, so let’s, let’s, let’s peel that back just a little bit, because I want to make sure that, that our audience is 100% on the same page as you when you say, like, I think trust your reputation, understand that. Totally, totally get that. When you say specialized strategic expertise, I know it might seem obvious to many, but please slice that apart a little bit and define that further.

Susan Baier [00:24:14 – 00:25:00]

So specialized clients explicitly say that they want their agencies to be experts in a particular area, in a particular discipline, in a particular industry, in a particular type of company, solving a particular type of problem. And they are willing to pay more for specialized expertise, if you can imagine that, right? Everybody worries that clients want to pay less. They want to get away with less. They want to— we don’t see that in the data. What they’re willing to do is actually pay you more if you are truly an expert and can demonstrate that. And the expertise that they want is overwhelmingly strategic because the tactical stuff can easily be done a bunch of different ways by a bunch of different people.

Stephen Woessner [00:25:00 – 00:25:00]

Yeah.

Susan Baier [00:25:00 – 00:25:27]

Right? But that depth of experience, that focus in a particular area, that’s what they’re looking for. So I’m basing that not on my opinion. I’m basing it on what clients tell us that they look for in agencies and what they’re willing to pay for. And overwhelmingly, it’s, it’s, it’s strategic depth, strategic expertise, and chops in a specific sphere that is important to those prospects.

Stephen Woessner [00:25:28 – 00:26:36]

So friends, we’re going to take a quick break. Susan and I are going to take a quick break, and then when we come back, we’re going to start dipping into— not dipping into, we’re going to take a deep dive into, jump into the deep end of the pool, let’s call it that way, or call it that, into the optimism paradox and then some of the other pieces of these huge actual insights that came out of this study. So we’re going to take a quick break and then we’re going to be back with Susan on the optimism paradox. Hey friends, I’d like to share a free resource my Predictive ROI team built for you based on the insights and research Susan Byer is sharing with you right now during this episode. If you go to predictiveROI.com/susan, you can download what we’re calling our Agency Implementation Diagnostic. 5 questions, 3 minutes. The diagnostic will show you exactly where your knowledge is an active asset, where it is sitting on the sidelines, and what you must do to close the gap between strategy and results. Again, you can find it at predictiveROI.com/susan and get your free diagnostic.

Stephen Woessner [00:26:38 – 00:27:10]

Hey friends, we’re back. And at break, actually, Susan mentioned to me, hey, before we dive into Optimism Paradox, we really need to go into recognition and action and how those are 2 different things. And I’m like, ooh, spot on. Uh, because that was one of the things that, that we were going to talk about. And then I just like skimmed right past it because I was so excited about the paradox. So before we do that, um, so Susan, take us into sort of the, um, I don’t know, is it fair to say juxtaposition? Like recognition and action are 2 different things. Like, what do you mean when you say that?

Susan Baier [00:27:11 – 00:28:06]

Well, there’s actually 2 different aspects of this that I, that I think are really fascinating. So, um, we just, we just talked about how clients need to recognize us as experts, right? And see proof of that, right? Before they’re gonna take action, which is reach out to us, which is what you consider us. So there’s the, you know, recognition and action. Requiring those 2, you know, the first to achieve the second. And that’s your, that’s your authority and demand parallel. I see this, right, is very much what you guys talk about, like, have authority, have it be someplace where they can see it said by somebody where they trust that person. And it guides them to say, all right, I’m going to take a risk and reach out to these people because they seem to really know what they’re doing. And that’s what I’m hearing.

Susan Baier [00:28:06 – 00:29:00]

So, On the client side, on the prospect side, that’s super important. But what we also see in the study is on the agency leader side, a big gap between what they know they should be doing to solve their deepest challenges and what they’re actually doing when it comes to solving their deepest challenges. And, you know, that’s some of the stats that you gave in the intro, right? When, when we ask people about the severe challenge they’re having, whether it’s pipeline challenges, like maintaining a robust pipeline of the right fit prospects, you know, that’s 2/3 of agencies say that is a severe challenge. And that has not budged since we did the first study in 2022. That is stunning to me. I know. We’re— it’s calcified in agency life. I think we just have this chronic problem across the board, right? With pipeline that affects many of us.

Susan Baier [00:29:01 – 00:29:47]

But then we’re also seeing things like differentiation being a big problem, getting paid what we’re worth, getting, getting more business from existing clients, right? Growing our existing book of business. And these have all really increased in the last year. So what we did in the study was, if you had a pipeline problem, if you said that in the survey, then we came back to you and we said, do you Know a strategy that you believe would solve that problem for your agency. Write it down. It was an open-ended box, not like a pick list, right? What do, what do you think that is? And depending on the category, like, you know, 70% of them could write an actual strategy in the box.

Stephen Woessner [00:29:47 – 00:29:47]

Yeah.

Susan Baier [00:29:47 – 00:30:46]

That made sense. We didn’t judge them, but, but they’re not, they’re not gibberish, right? Um, they’re real rational strategies. And then we said, to what extent is your agency embracing that strategy and executing it? And that’s where you get percentages like 15%, 16%, 17%. Of the people who could write a strategy, which was the majority, fewer than 20% of them are actually embracing that strategy for one of the things that was positioned as one of their most severe and pressing challenges. for the agency. That’s the difference between recognition and action on the part of us agency leaders. And it is a cobbler’s kid’s problem, but it’s one that’s killing agencies. I was surprised because I think if I’d asked people, hey, have you ever heard anybody tell you what you should do to fix your agency? And then most would say yes.

Susan Baier [00:30:47 – 00:31:27]

And then I said, how— to what extent are you doing that? I think that percentage would probably be pretty small. Okay. But the fact that it was, we weren’t asking about things somebody’s told them, we were asking about things they themselves believe would fix the problem. So that was pervasive. Uh, there’s one group in our study we’ll talk about that’s doing a much better job at that than everybody else. But fully 2/3 of us, um, are, are not doing a good job at all when we’re struggling with these big problems to implement the stuff that we believe would fix it. Which is very concerning to me. It suggests a very fine line between the ability to survive as an agency and thrive and not.

Susan Baier [00:31:29 – 00:32:33]

And there’s no, you know, when we look at the groups that are doing a really good job, don’t have as many challenges with pipeline, don’t have issues with differentiation, don’t have issues with reputation, don’t have issues with getting paid what they’re worth, don’t have issues with getting more work out of their existing clients. They look just like every other agency. They’re not any bigger or richer or fancier, or, you know, they’re, they’re just doing the work. They’re just implementing the work. They, you know, they say, we have worked hard to build a reputation for our expertise in our niche. We work hard at, at, at making sure our marketing talks about our point of difference. So, you know, Those things, they’ve put the work in and it’s showing for them. The rest of us are like, just, you know, complaining about— and we, when we ask people why you haven’t done this, why you haven’t made progress on this strategy that you know about, overwhelmingly it’s, you know, you’re gonna not be surprised by this at all, right? But I, there’s no time.

Susan Baier [00:32:33 – 00:32:49]

We don’t have enough people. The market keeps moving. We, we don’t have any data to tell us what’s going on. We’ve got too many priorities. Our leadership won’t agree. You know, we’re too afraid. Like every excuse in the book. Yeah.

Susan Baier [00:32:50 – 00:32:52]

And for some of us, it’s a fatal problem.

Stephen Woessner [00:32:53 – 00:33:36]

Well, I think you summed it up beautifully in the deck and everyone, you heard it at the break. And then I’m also going to mention it here. So the link, this just Fits in with the whole relentlessly helpful, um, that Agency Corps and Susan and team are all about. So there’s going to be a link in today’s show notes where you can go, uh, and download the research. There’s not even an opt-in. You can just download the research, you know, off of the Agency Corps website. And I’m looking at how, um, you, Brian, and team summarized this when you wrote in the report, most agency leaders can name the path to success. They’re just not walking it.

Susan Baier [00:33:37 – 00:33:39]

Right. Yep.

Stephen Woessner [00:33:39 – 00:33:39]

Wow.

Susan Baier [00:33:40 – 00:34:23]

And, and, and I, I don’t know about you, but I’m certainly there. I mean, I, you know, it, it seems insurmountable sometimes and we lose, you know, we focus on client work and we’re trying to, you know, get this done or whatever. And some of the most important fundamental things just don’t happen. So I’m, I’m not criticizing anyone in a way that I’m not hearing that criticism myself. But I think it’s becoming a more pointed stick than it’s ever been. Things are moving very, very quickly. And the folks who are going to survive the changes in the industry are going to be the ones that have this figured out. You know, when, when we look at the 3 segments of agency leaders that we found in the study.

Stephen Woessner [00:34:23 – 00:34:23]

Yeah.

Susan Baier [00:34:24 – 00:34:57]

There’s a group called the Confident Differentiators. And the fascinating thing to me about this group is they aren’t worried about anything, unlike the rest of us, right? They, you know, I look at these people and go, wow, this would be really great. Like, my agency has a positive reputation among people and organizations trusted by our ideal Prospects, they’re 24 points higher than, uh, average on this. 91% of them strongly agree with that statement. Wow.

Stephen Woessner [00:34:57 – 00:34:58]

Wow. 91%.

Susan Baier [00:34:59 – 00:35:20]

91% of them. Uh, my agency is known as a helpful expert among prospects in our niche. 79%. My agency has a unique positioning that sets us apart. 26 points higher than other agencies at 74%. We’re well positioned to succeed. We’re optimistic. We’ve strongly committed to a niche position in our marketing efforts.

Susan Baier [00:35:21 – 00:35:48]

Our leadership team is closely connected with our clients’ leadership teams. Our marketing clearly communicates what makes us different. We’re good at implementing the changes we need to make. We are building trust with prospects before they contact us. Right? So you look at those folks and they just have it figured out. They are not threatened by AI. They’re not worried about AI because they already have a reputation for doing what they do best. And the niche recognizes it.

Susan Baier [00:35:48 – 00:36:42]

The experts in the niche refer people to them, and the prospects in the niche are seeing that and understanding that before they have a sales call with the agency, you know, before they sign up for the newsletter, it’s already, it’s already visible. And those folks are struggling, not, not at all, but they’re struggling far less than the rest of us are. There are about 2/3 of us who are really, really having trouble with these core issues, and they’re taking sort of different, I guess, approaches for solving it. I guess we’ll see what happens. But I think far more of us could be in that confident differentiator place. It’s not like there’s not room, you know, it’s a big wide world and every agency I know has a different expertise in a different area. So there can be a lot of confident differentiators out there. I think more of us need to get there.

Stephen Woessner [00:36:43 – 00:36:53]

So take us into the optimism paradox. And are the confident differentiators affected just like the other 2 segments?

Susan Baier [00:36:56 – 00:37:18]

Um, the optimism paradox is that I’ve— and if you, you do this, you talk with agencies, right? And everybody bitches about how clients don’t want to listen to us. They don’t want to pay our fees. AI is going to kill agencies. Clients are going to want to hire us, fire us. It’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s going to be bad, right?

Stephen Woessner [00:37:18 – 00:37:18]

Yeah.

Susan Baier [00:37:19 – 00:37:59]

Clients love their agencies. 91% of agency clients that we surveyed this year said working with an agency increases the likelihood that they will achieve their goals. 75% said it’s a critical partner for business success. Right. At the same time, agency leaders are saying, oh, You know, building trust is harder than ever. You know, clients really like their agencies. So we have this doom and gloom thing, and I’m not saying it’s not hard, right? But I think what we are seeing is actually one of the biggest periods of opportunity for agencies that we’ve seen probably in my agency career since like digital came, since digital showed up.

Stephen Woessner [00:37:59 – 00:38:00]

Why do you think so?

Susan Baier [00:38:01 – 00:38:15]

Because Agencies want our strategic guidance and assistance in figuring out how to navigate this new landscape of AI, different ways to be seen and found beyond the website.

Stephen Woessner [00:38:15 – 00:38:16]

Mm-hmm.

Susan Baier [00:38:16 – 00:38:47]

You know, how, how, how are people searching for us now, whatever, and taking advantage of the opportunities that AI can provide in a careful way, in a responsible way. Clients are saying, will you help us? We need you to help us with this. And I think that there’s a lot of agencies. I know that there’s a lot of agencies that are doing very little to talk about AI because they’re afraid that it’s gonna get ’em fired. Right? Uh, they’re afraid they, they’re not the expert that they wanna be yet. Well, who is? Good grief.

Stephen Woessner [00:38:48 – 00:38:49]

You know, everyone’s trying to figure it out.

Susan Baier [00:38:50 – 00:39:40]

Everybody’s trying to figure it out. But you know, 25% of agency leaders say that their agency is completely transparent about AI use. 82% of clients say that transparency increases their trust in their agencies. We’re missing a huge opportunity to say, look, we’re trying to figure out this too. It’s our job to get as far out in front of this as we can to make sure that you clients have all of the opportunities that your competitors have to take advantage of this, to learn how to be seen and found in this environment, how to stand out as being different. Right. But they’re— but, but we’re not, we’re not doing it right. 82% of clients say recognized expertise in AI use for marketing gives an agency a significant advantage in being hired by them.

Susan Baier [00:39:41 – 00:39:41]

82%.

Stephen Woessner [00:39:42 – 00:40:20]

Okay. So, so, hey, so hang on just one second with this because this is, this is so fascinating what you’re talking about. And again, maybe this isn’t juxtaposition, but it kind of feels this way to me. Like when you say that, And I’m like, okay, it’s like jump into that deep end of the pool. And then I see like severe pipeline challenges and specifically for the AI opportunity embracers, it’s like 84%. I’m like, wait a minute, that doesn’t make any sense to me. Like you, you, you agencies are the AI opportunity embracers and yet 84% say there’s a severe pipeline challenge and 67% say there’s differentiation. So it is a challenge.

Susan Baier [00:40:21 – 00:40:29]

Right. So I think, I think what you’re assuming is a timing situation that may not be accurate.

Stephen Woessner [00:40:29 – 00:40:30]

Oh, okay.

Susan Baier [00:40:30 – 00:40:39]

What I’m seeing is the AI opportunity embracers, the second group in our segmentation, are experiencing these challenges more than anyone else.

Stephen Woessner [00:40:39 – 00:40:40]

Okay.

Susan Baier [00:40:40 – 00:41:00]

I think what they are doing is turning to AI because they believe it will save them. So they are building that expertise. They are building a reputation based on AI because They’ve been unsuccessful so far in addressing these challenges for their agency, and they see as the opportunity to do that.

Stephen Woessner [00:41:00 – 00:41:00]

Absolutely.

Susan Baier [00:41:01 – 00:41:54]

Now, whether whether that will in fact turn out to be the opportunity they think it is, I don’t know. Right? Early days. But there are a lot of say, I don’t know, HubSpot agencies out there right now who are kind of struggling because that’s their reputation, and things are changing on the HubSpot front with partners and stuff like that. So they they are tying themselves to a tool that anyone and everyone can use, right? But certainly clients want strategic AI expertise, governance, strategic use, data protection. They want that from agencies. And this is the group that is saying we’re going hard and fast in that direction in the hope that that will solve their problem. And it may. You know, I don’t, I, I, I, I can’t predict a year ahead into the future.

Susan Baier [00:41:54 – 00:42:04]

I can’t predict a week ahead into the future with AI, right? But that’s what they’ve decided is a solution. There’s a third group, right? Which is we call pressured and uncertain.

Stephen Woessner [00:42:04 – 00:42:05]

Mm-hmm.

Susan Baier [00:42:06 – 00:42:29]

That is also struggling with these problems and will not use AI because they see it as a threat to their agency. So what are they gonna do? They have not decided yet. And they, like everybody else, have ideas about what would solve the problems, but they’re not moving. The AI embracers, we don’t know yet whether they’re moving in the right direction, but they’re moving, right?

Stephen Woessner [00:42:30 – 00:42:30]

Mm-hmm.

Susan Baier [00:42:31 – 00:43:10]

This third group, I worry, is not moving. And you cannot stay in that position of stasis very long in this environment. I don’t, I don’t think. I think that agencies are claiming their ground, their expertise, their niche, their particular special sauce, right? Whether it’s AI or something else. And if you, if you just sit and look like a generalist without much to say, I’m afraid that your survival rate is, is not going to be great. And that’s a third of the agency leaders that we surveyed this year, Stephen, which concerns me.

Stephen Woessner [00:43:10 – 00:44:03]

Yeah. Well, so let’s, let’s, let’s talk about that as we start to come in for a landing, because as I mentioned to you in the green room before we started to record, I felt like, I mean, there’s so much that is profound in this study, but, but I asked you in particular about one phrase that’s under, uh, like on the risks, um, slide or page under the pressured and uncertain. There’s a statement under there, and, or that you and team put under there, and it reads, knowing without acting has a shelf life. And I asked you, you know, in the green room, like, is that just for pressured and uncertain? Can it be extended to the other attitudinal segments? But now I’m starting to better understand why it’s reflected under pressured and uncertain, where like, this is based on the context that you just shared.

Susan Baier [00:44:03 – 00:44:04]

This is what they’re—

Stephen Woessner [00:44:04 – 00:44:08]

This is the group that truly is at the greatest risk. Am I understanding it correctly?

Susan Baier [00:44:08 – 00:44:35]

Yes. Yep. Because the, the, the confident differentiators have long moved in a strong direction for reputation, for visibility, for demonstrating their expertise and their difference. So they’re on a path and that’s not stopping, right? They’re established. These, the AI opportunity embracers have decided that’s where they’re going. So they’re moving, they’re building a reputation. They’re talking about their expertise in that front. This particular group.

Susan Baier [00:44:36 – 00:45:05]

is really struggling. They do not know what to do. They, they do not know where to go. And that stasis can be lethal. It, it, you know, you just get, you just get swallowed up. And this group is more likely than any other to say one of the things they’re thinking about is just walking away from their business, just walking away from their agency, uh, at a higher rate than we see for either of the other ones. You know, that’s concerning. That’s a lot of us, right?

Stephen Woessner [00:45:05 – 00:45:10]

Well, it’s like you said, it’s a third. It is not an insignificant number.

Susan Baier [00:45:11 – 00:45:42]

Right. Yep. Yep. And, you know, I worry about that group. 23% of them say that they are considering just winding down their agency. Compared to like 3% of confident differentiators and 12% of the AI opportunity embracers. And when you’re in a place where you’re thinking about winding down your agency, that means you just don’t think there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.

Stephen Woessner [00:45:43 – 00:46:26]

Yeah. And, and, and I certainly understand how it can feel like a big boulder to, to push. And, but, but I also wanna highlight something here too. About what you just said and how you said it. Because the words that you just used, your tone in which you said it, I’m going to loop this back to relentlessly helpful at the very beginning. Because you just demonstrated how much care, compassion, love, how much commitment you have for serving all of us who are in the agency world. You know, by serving your smarts generously, every time we turn around, there you are with something helpful. you know, an important answer to, uh, an important question.

Stephen Woessner [00:46:27 – 00:46:37]

Um, and, and so just the way that you were talking about this group, uh, is really indicative of how you truly care about the work that you do.

Susan Baier [00:46:38 – 00:47:09]

I do. And I’ve been, I’ve been working my first agency job I got in, uh, 1986 even. And, um, these, you know, we are an agency, our friends and our clients and our collaborators. are in agencies, and it’s not easy. Everyone knows it’s not easy. It’s a crazy business to be in. So I want to survive it. I want my friends and my clients and my collaborators to survive it, and beyond that, to thrive.

Susan Baier [00:47:09 – 00:47:54]

And that’s where this data, I hope, will be helpful to folks. It’s been incredibly helpful to me over the years of thinking about how do I get in front of the people that I want to help? You know, what is helpful to them? What do they want from us? And that’s driven a lot of the work, you know, that we’ve done over the years. And this is just one that’s, you know, it’s, it’s some of the data is hard to see, but there’s tremendous opportunity in it too. And with all the worry that I see, the dark clouds that hang over the heads of agency owners, I hope that looking at this data gives folks some more optimism. It’s warranted. There’s tremendous opportunity here. And the people who are doing well are no different than you or me. They’re just doing.

Susan Baier [00:47:55 – 00:47:55]

They’re doing.

Stephen Woessner [00:47:57 – 00:48:35]

Amen to that. Susan, I always walk away from every interaction and every time spent with you feeling smarter. And this is certainly no different. It has been a wonderful honor to have you here as part of our In Demand Agency Podcast. Thank you for putting such great work out into the world. As I share in all of our introductions, your research, Agency Core, was one of the sparks, uh, that sparked the genesis of this show. And very, very grateful to have you here, uh, to share your insights and wisdom so our audience could learn directly from you. Uh, it’s been a joy to have you here.

Susan Baier [00:48:36 – 00:48:39]

It’s my honor. Thank you very much. Keep up the good work, Stephen.

Stephen Woessner [00:48:42 – 00:49:44]

Friends, I hope that conversation with Susan Byer was as valuable for you as it was for me to have with her. I mean, holy bananas. Susan clearly brings a level of data-backed clarity to our industry that, in my opinion, is absolutely unmatched. So I want to take a few minutes here to highlight 3 big takeaways from our time together with Susan, because I believe that they point directly to the biz dev work that we need to do inside our agencies right now. My big first takeaway from Susan is the reality that there is an implementation gap. You heard her say that over 50% of agency leaders can name the exact strategies needed for pipeline growth, revenue growth, and reputation growth, but Fewer than 17% are implementing fully, fully implementing the strategies. So think about that. Agencies know the playbook.

Stephen Woessner [00:49:45 – 00:50:33]

They’re just not running the plays. We spend our time gathering more information, buying more tools, subscribing to things, studying more tactics, all the while knowing, knowing that the knowledge that we have, it has a shelf life. The gap between recognition and action is where agency growth goes to die, and we can all do better at this. Okay, so now my second takeaway is what Susan revealed about the, quote, pressured and uncertain, end quote, segment in her research. These are the agency owners who see AI as a threat, feel immense pressure around differentiation, And yet they are completely stuck. They don’t have a direction. They sit on their hands. But Susan made a critical point.

Stephen Woessner [00:50:33 – 00:50:53]

You cannot stay there. The market is moving too fast while you’re hemming and hawing. Those are my words. Other agencies are scrambling to be seen and heard. Sitting still is not a conservative strategy. It is a slow fade into irrelevance. All right. So now my third big takeaway.

Stephen Woessner [00:50:55 – 00:51:52]

Is the core thesis of Susan’s work. Reputation is no longer a passive byproduct of doing good work. It has to be actively built and demonstrated upstream. In an era where trust has moved upstream and your right-fit prospects are making decisions before they ever talk with you, they need to see your specialized expertise in action before they ever reach out to you. If your authority is locked inside your head or hidden behind closed client doors, your prospects cannot find you. So here is what I would encourage you to do this week. Please take a hard look at your agency. Are you trapped in the 50 versus 17% gap? Do you have a playbook sitting on your shelf? that you know you should be running? If you do, pick one play, put it into action, stop knowing and start doing.

Stephen Woessner [00:51:54 – 00:52:19]

Okay. We all have the same 86,400 seconds in a day, my friends. So thank you for spending some time, spending a portion of your invaluable time with Susan and me. I hope this episode helped you see the gap between recognition and action, And that it gives you the push you need to close it. Until next week, onward with gusto.