Focusing Forward

Episode 953: Focusing Forward, with John Robertson

Focusing forward, an insightful podcast episode with John Robertson. Learn how to achieve your future plans by focusing forward.

Before he became a company president, John Robertson was a Colonel in the U.S. Air Force who oversaw an $8 billion program. Today he coaches C-level executives on how to take advantage of the coming future tsunami of artificial intelligence. This is his way of focusing forward and in embracing future innovations that leads to progress.

What you will learn from this episode about focusing forward:

• How John’s career began with joining the Air Force after college, before progressing into the business world and real estate
• How the 1985 economic crash brought John’s business to a screeching halt and left him $2 million in debt with no way out
• How John came out of financial disaster through perseverance and intentionality, and how he now teaches others to prepare for the future by focusing forward
• Why John titled his book “Focus Forward Leadership” after realizing that business of all size often struggle to focus on future progress
• Why maintaining discipline and using quarterly meetings to map your plans for the future are critical steps you can take to stay focused
• Why business leaders often struggle to be clear in communicating exactly what their goals and expectations are and what results they are looking for
• John shares five key action items from his book “Focus Forward Leadership”, and he shares why these key action items will make a difference in your business
• How the numbers “4, 12, 365” are the keys to ensure you’re focusing forward on your goals without getting distracted by the day-to-day
• Why consistency is vital for every role within your organization, from the CEO down to frontline employees

Resources:

• Website: www.focusforwardleadership.com
• Email: [email protected]
• Focus Forward Leadership by John Robertson: https://amzn.to/31AFoWH
• LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/leadershipid/
• Start focusing forward on your journey by registering here

Additional Resources:

• Sell With Authority by Drew McLellan and Stephen Woessner: https://amzn.to/39y7x13
• Predictive ROI Free Resource Library: https://predictiveroi.com/resources/
• Stephen Woessner’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/stephenwoessner/
• Learn how focusing forward can lead to greatness

 

 

Focusing Forward: Full Episode Transcript

 

Get ready to find your recipe for success from America’s top business owners here at Onward Nation with your host, Stephen Woessner.

 

Good morning. I’m Stephen Woessner, CEO of Predictive ROI and your host for Onward Nation, where I interview today’s top business owners so we can learn their recipe for success, how they built, and how they scaled their business. In fact, my team at Predictive ROI, you know that we have been doubling down on ways to be helpful, especially during the crisis.

 

But we’ve always made that investment in time and content and so forth. But now we’re continuing to rebuild and add even more to our free resources section on PredictiveROI.com. So you can download free practical and tactical guides for how to create your ideal client avatar, how to land your dream clients, and even our new B2B podcasting for Profit Secrets e-book, plus other success strategies that we’ve compiled from the brilliant insights shared by our very generous guests.

 

Just go to PredictiveROI.com/Resources and as always, anything you request, we will send it right to your inbox. Before we welcome today’s very special guest, John Robertson. Let me share some additional context and background. Why, when John and I were connecting and in Henry DeVries, if you’re listening. Thank you, my friend, for making the introductions so that John and I can have this conversation on rotation.

 

I knew that this was going to be super, super helpful. And when we dive into this, you’ll get that perspective why this was going to be a very, very helpful conversation for all of us onboard. So before he became a company president, John was a colonel in the United States Air Force era and oversaw an $8 billion program.

 

Well, so now, fast forward, he coaches C-suite executives, business owners, and leaders on how to take advantage of what he will call a coming tsunami of artificial intelligence. He is also the author of a book. Awesome book. And in the title is even more spot on today, focus for word leadership, maximizing profits in the artificial intelligence age.

 

And you’ll you’ll hear, as John and I are talking through this conversation about how could that title be even more on point? It will probably be impossible to be even more on point. He wrote it before the coronavirus crisis. And now these principles, leadership, the guidelines, the advice that he shares in this book is so spot on. Focus on word leadership.

 

So without further ado, welcome to Onward Nation, John. 

 

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Focusing Forward: John Robertson’s Introduction

 

Thank you, Stephen, it’s good to be with you this afternoon. Well, it is good to have you here, my friend. I am grateful that you are taking the time to share your insights and wisdom with our audience. That’s generous of you. And like I said, I am grateful. So especially during this crisis when there are so many top priorities, I know that you’re in high demand.

 

So again, I’m grateful. So before we dive in with the litany of questions that I want to ask you, would you take us behind the curtain and give us some additional context here beyond your bio and all the cool things that you’ve accomplished? Take us behind the curtain. Tell us more about you, your path, your journey, and then we’ll dive in.

 

Well thank you Stephen. I, my journey is not unique. Out of college, I had a choice of three jobs. Army, Navy or Air Force. Those are the days when the Vietnam War was on and we didn’t get a chance to look for a job. We just hopefully got to the right place with a job. So the Air Force and I agreed on terms and setting the missile launch role for four years and then worked in their various aircraft and logistics settings.

 

And then finally, when I left the Air Force, I moved into the business world and started my own real estate insurance businesses here in Austin, Texas. And those days in Austin, Texas was a very, still small town, about 500,000 perhaps. Texas still had its own banking systems. There wasn’t a national banking system. There wasn’t branch banking.

 

They still had their own, private networks, a way of doing things. There was no internet or any of those kinds of things. And we began building homes and built our business into all aspects of real estate. And, began to do very, very well. And matter of fact, by 1984, we had done about $8 million revenue.

 

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Focusing Forward: Market Crash 

 

We were building 30 homes a year. That’s equivalent to about $20 million in revenue today. But then in 1985, we started off rolling. just things were growing, going great. And in April, I had three lead banks. They called me in and said, John, there’s going to be a recession. And, you don’t get to participate.

 

We’re calling your loans. And I said, well, no problem, I’ll go to my second bank. Well, the second bank tells me the same thing. I went to the third bank. They told me the same thing. And before the end of that Monday and April, I was $2 million in debt. No banker to help me figure my way out.

 

That was the start of a major, major crash in real estate, oil and gas and banking. And from roughly 1985 to 1990, I don’t know how many of your listeners have ever walked in and found that kind of disaster on their doorstep, on a Monday morning. But that was certainly my experience. The experience was so bad that we lost all of our Texas banks.

 

Primarily, we still had 1 or 2 left, but they brought in the big banks and the big banks started following money out of Texas at about $750 million a quarter. There wasn’t any money left to grow on. It took five years for the Texas economy to come back. Oil and gas crashed. And with that crash, many, many jobs crashed.

 

And so too did real estate crash. We had a 40% devaluation in the value of real estate. I just bought a new house in 1985, moved in and literally, the market crashed the next month, my house devalued 40%. I owed more and my mortgage than my house was worth, and it took me ten years of living in that house for it to regain its value.

 

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Focusing Forward: Recovering From Recession

 

By 1995. Fortunately, the economy in Texas began to recover by 1990. But think about that five years. That five years was luck and pluck and hard work in order to get every day to pay the payrolls, to make the ends meet, to to generate some kind of new business. And of course, in real estate, you find the best ways to diversify.

 

And I’ve used that experience along with my military experience. Then to help, many CEOs understand and work toward the newest things going on. Most of the time you get a busy CEO and they say, well, I don’t need to worry about that right now. I’ve got too much going on, and we always end up coaching those new CEOs through.

 

Yes, you do, but you need to focus your business forward now because there will come a time when you can’t make all those adjustments. And in fact, the adjustment you’re trying to make is how do I save this employee’s job? How do I make payroll tomorrow? And those are the kinds of things that I’m hoping we can bring into the conversation today.

 

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Focusing Forward: Coming Out of a Huge Debt

 

Well, and I think we will. And I think we definitely should because that’s going to be a series of great lessons for Onward Nation business owners. And as I hear you share the story of the 1985 through 1990, those five years and the $2 million in debt on a Monday morning and how you obviously survived that.

 

You’re here with us today and you picked up a lot of lessons along the way. But as if one word stood out to me as I’m, it’s like flashing in my head as I’m listening to your story and that is perspective. And I’m thinking, wow, what valuable perspective that John now has. This amazing opportunity and gift to be able to share with business owners, leaders, executives in their teams.

 

Today, as we’re all trying to navigate what that next path or what the new path forward is going to be and here you are. You’ve got decades of perspective to be able to share. What a gift, John. Well, thank you. I am willing to share that. And in fact, I just wrote an article for Texas CEO magazine that relates some of that story and a little bit about how to come out of that.

 

And of course, as we’ve grown both through the Air Force and through our businesses, we’ve watched many others work their way through similar situations, but not quite in such a dire situation as I found myself. Well, Onward Nation, you know how I like to take you behind the curtain or just share this little nugget of coolness when John and I first met. We had our introductory call, and when Henry put us together and we’re just talking about backgrounds and so forth, and it was like, oh, you were in the Air Force.

 

I was in the Air Force, too. And so, you know, John asked me, you know, what was your career field in the Air Force? And I said, well, I spent four years in South Dakota in nuclear missile silos. And he’s like, oh, wow. I spent time in the launch control centers. You know, he was one of the capsule crew that would actually turn the keys, you know?

 

And now I’m starting to sound like a little bit of a geek as far as they are concerned. He would be part of the team to launch a nuclear missile, and thankfully, we never had to do that. So I was the one working to make sure that the missiles would be ready. And thankfully, something like that never had to happen.

 

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Focusing Forward: Time in the Air Force

 

But, amazing that you and I share that piece of commonality and and and just thank you again, sir, for your service. Thank you for your service team. You know, we sat down in a hole, but we really depended on you guys to make sure that we were ready to go. You know, all we had was lights and keys.

 

You guys had the bridges and made things work. And so you are a very, very valuable part of that team. And you made us 100% and go all the time. And that’s, of course, what that business is all about. So my thanks to you and all the folks that did all the unsung work to keep us alive and ready during those times and still do tech.

 

Yeah, indeed. Men and women keep those birds ready and thankfully they’ve never had to be called. But so let’s shine a bright light onto your book here for a few minutes. One, because I think the title is very appropriate. It was appropriate, obviously, when you decided to write the book, you know, super on point, for what business owners are dealing with today.

 

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Focusing Forward: The Focus Forward Leadership Book 

 

So again, Onward Nation, the title of John’s book is Focus Forward Leadership. subtitle Maximizing Profits in the Artificial Intelligence Age. So John, why did you decide? Let’s think about the title here for a second. Why did you decide to title your book Focus Forward leadership? Like why that title? Well, because probably over the years, the most difficult thing that I found most organizations doing, and I don’t care whether it’s a nonprofit I was working with or whether, working with a church or whether I’m working with the CEO and small business or medium sized businesses or a large business.

 

I’m fine. And what I found was they had a very, very difficult time. staying focused on not the task at hand, but on where they were going. yeah. It reminded me of the time that I was taking my grandkids to Kansas City to meet their mom and dad. The son had moved up there with his company, and he had three daughters.

 

And so they stayed with us for a week. We took the grandkids up there and, not no sooner had gotten out of Austin and headed to Kansas City. Then they began to say, are we there yet? Now, of course, that’s normal. But we got to Waco and we decided we’d stop for some ice cream.

 

Well, that was a nice stop, but we got stopped for the ice cream. Then they wanted to go look at all the things in Waco. Well, we couldn’t stop and look at the things in Waco because we needed to get to Kansas City. Well, we got past Dallas and Fort Worth and. And Oklahoma City made another major stop.

 

And oh my goodness, we wanted to stop and look at all the things there. And then we got to the Kansas state line. Well, they had to get out and look at the Kansas state line. So by the time we got to Kansas City, we had stopped 3 or 4 times. But every one of those stops reminded me exactly what happens with organizations. They get so wrapped up into where they stopped, they forgot where they were going.

 

And for us and for me, that would’ve been easy to stop and let’s go have some fun. But we had people waiting on us where we were going. Businesses forget that they’re aimed at some destination almost any day now. There’s a few that don’t, but for the most part, they know that they’re aimed at a particular destination.

 

They lose track of that, and then the decisions they make put them in a spiral that takes them away from the original target they were aimed at. That’s the reason for the book. Focus Forward into where you’re going. Know what your destination is. My favorite question, I ask, repeatedly. Almost anybody I ask is how do you enhance the lives of those you touch?

 

And that applies not only in our personal lives but it applies to businesses. How are you going to enhance the lives of those you touched in this pandemic and coming out of this pandemic? It’s even more important because now, not only do you have to add value to the people you have, but value on top of that value in order to build a relationship through the computer or through the screen that normally you’ll be able to do in face-to-face kinds of meetings, one-on-one.

 

So the whole idea of Focus Forward Leadership is to know your destination, know where you’re going, and stay with the discipline instruction. No structure that will take you there. Okay. So let’s dive in here because I know there’s a lot of great takeaways out of your book. And I’m going to ask you to highlight a couple of those like golden nuggets.

 

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Focusing Forward: Losing Track of the Discipline

 

But before we do that though, when you said to lose track of the destination, I absolutely agree. I find myself doing that often which is why we invest so heavily, in time as well as, you know, financial resources in a quarterly planning process where we’re, you know, making sure that our leadership team is spending time together, or at least quarterly.

 

We’re meeting weekly as a leadership team. We have quarterly priorities as well as monthly priorities and share those with the team. But if we didn’t have that discipline in place and before we had that discipline in place, absolutely felt like we were aimlessly wandering through the wilderness. Why? So why do you see that happening? And like, why are C-suite executives, leaders, business owners losing track of the destination?

 

Why does that happen? John, from your perspective? Oh, that’s such a great question, Steve. And I’ve studied that for a long, long time. And my biggest answer to you to that is one, in those quarterly meetings, I really congratulate you for doing that and putting that discipline structure into your company for me. But many companies start in on those quarterly meetings.

 

That works for the first 2 or 3, four quarters, but the next year it doesn’t, and the next year it doesn’t. So they lose track of that discipline. The second thing about a quarterly meeting is that the first and foremost part of the quarterly meaning is not how much money we spend or not what the budget is, which is what most of them prefer to work on because that’s the easy stuff.

 

The really important part of those early meetings is where are we going and what are we going to do about it? Have we stopped in Waco? I headed to New York and now I’m in Atlanta. It feels like New York. I think I’ll be happy here rather than going on to New York. You see what I mean?

 

What happens is you replace our original goals with something interim in between that’s easier for us to reach rather than staying focused on the particular goal. The second part about that is we have a really difficult time. And I say we because I’m not talking about myself as a CEO and with many of the other CEOs I deal with.

 

And that problem is we have a really difficult time communicating a clear idea about what we want and about what the result looks like. And as we get into the virtual workplaces, we have to do a much better job of talking about the results we’re working toward, not just are you working? So let me tell you a little skit that I kind of work with people through to emphasize this focus piece.

 

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Focusing Forward: Communicating on the Plan

 

Okay. I’m a, let’s say I’m a CEO, and I bring my top five, four people into the room. My CIO, my chief of information, my CFO, finance, my CEO, operations, and CRO sales. Okay, I bring them in or I sit down and say, Jim and I just went to a seminar, and I found the magic number, and the magic number is four.

 

And if we just go, just get the four. We can make this company completely turn around. And, and seeing clear in the brand new revenues, and they have everyone sit there and say, God, it got to get the four right. I’m going to give you this mid-year. This is our mid-year for I’m going to ask you to come back at the end of the year and tell me, how are we going to get to four?

 

Well into the year comes, they all walk back in, they all sit down. They say, boss, we got it. We all got to fold. I said, real because I haven’t seen good results come back yet. You said no, no, no, it’s here. I say okay Mr. CRO sales, how did you get to four? Oh, he said it was easy.

 

We just multiply two times two. It was easy. We got there. I got four. We’re. We’re home. I went over to finance, I went CFO. Mr. CFO, how did you get to four? Oh, we divided 16 by four and we got four. So how come you divide it? He said, well, we had some assets in here. We can move this, we can move that.

 

We can change this around. We can get to your four grid. Okay. Mr. Operations, how did you get to four? Oh, real easy. All I had to do is add two plus to make sure this operation added to that operation. And I’ve just got two plus two having those four. So really sales you multiplied operation two.

 

You added finance, you subtracted the CEO. How did your department get to four? Oh, we divide it. You divide it. Yeah. We simply took all that we were doing a year and we divided it by two and we got to four. So you had eight and now you’re two I mean and divided by ten you got four.

 

What did you divide? So we just simply divided the work. We got it down to four. So we’re right. We’re running well. We think it was a good idea. Boss, I will wait a minute. How come I wanted a four, but you gave me a different four. You gave me a different four. 

 

You did. You gave me a different four. And I had a different four that I was looking for. And they said, well, boss, we did just what you said you wanted to do. What number one problem I had was communicating how I wanted to get to four. And so they did what I asked them to do. They were all genuine.

 

They were all solid. They were all effective. But none of them came up with the right answer to four. Why? Because they didn’t work among themselves, that was a common way of arriving at four. So if I put three groups together and made them combine something, they would shift and change. And so that’s exactly the communication issue.

 

That ties down not only the inability to stay focused on where your final destination is, but how you will communicate it to get there? Because we all come back and we do what you wanted, boss. But in effect, it wasn’t what the boss wanted. That’s a great illustration of how important not only setting the destination, but how important the communication of the intent of the plan and how it’s going to be done, and charging junior leaders with creating their portion of the plan and then communicating it back to the entire team to make sure that everybody is on the same page.

 

Right? That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And the other part about it is so often and this is again against my experience because I work mostly at the C-suite level. So we’ll talk about it in the C-suite. But it’s almost as if we want to keep it a secret. We don’t want to tell the employees what it is. You never run into that. 

 

I’m giggling because I’m thinking of examples. absolutely. That happens. It’s almost as if, playing the game of telephone up and down the team. Right. Just about it. Yeah, that’s exactly right. Because what happens is we’re really confident when we’re sitting around the table at the C-suite.

 

Yeah, we all know what we’re doing. But now I’ve got to go explain it. And now I don’t know how to explain it, but as I really used to not think highly of slogans and keywords and things such as that. But now I’ve become over the last, probably 10 or 15 years, a real advocate of keywords and slogans so that it will communicate without a large explanation into the depths, where the organization wants to achieve and where it’s going so that everybody can grow the boat in the same direction so to speak.

 

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Focusing Forward: Learning to Lead Through Other People

 

It’s really, really important for us all to be able to know where we’re going and why. Absolutely, I love this. This is awesome. Great lessons, early on in our conversation here. So let’s put a bright light on Focus Forward Leadership here if I were to ask you. Well, not if I were to ask you.

 

I am asking you, from a business owner perspective, because that’s who Onward Nation represents. We are a community of business owners and 120 countries. So what would be a couple of the biggest nuggets or lessons that you would like to share with business owners out of your book? Well, I felt like every chapter was important.

 

And let me see if I can summarize. The middle of my book has five key action items in five key action items. First of all, you have to lead to what you believe. You can’t be following somebody else’s idea. It’s got to be what you internally see as your solution, your idea for enhancing the lives of those you touch.

 

And it’s very, very important that you stay true to that, what you believe. If you don’t, then your passion and your impact on the rest of your company as well as the marketplace and those you deal with, loses it and loses its steam, and you don’t get tired of doing what you’re doing. So first you have to lead to what you believe.

 

But the second most difficult part is as a CEO, you have to grow yourself into where you lead through others. It’s been, I’ve seen it go on all the time, particularly with my grandchildren, where I try to help them do something. But I tell them, here’s how you do it. Now you go and do it, and they get frustrated trying to do it, and they really.

 

So you give it back to me and say, you do it for me. And I know I can’t do it for you. You won’t learn if I do it for you. And the same is true for CEOs. They have to expect their C-suite people to have difficult times to make mistakes, to try hard to go in the wrong direction.

 

And that’s why the communication and the weekly meetings and monthly meetings are so very important. So you can keep your leaders focused and coach them rather than going and doing their work for them. And I see so many CEOs just get mad and do it themselves particularly happens in the small business entrepreneur. And that moves into the mid-level business and mid-level businesses tend to have a little more flexibility, maybe a little more experience.

 

But as you move from the entrepreneurship of the small business into the mid-level business, and I’m talking roughly 50 to 250 million is the mid-level businesses. Those CEOs have to learn to lead through others. And the larger businesses get so much going on, they don’t have any choice. They have to lead throughout. But it’s in learning to lead through others that makes you the effective CEO to go to the next level.

 

We’ve already talked about leading to our destination. You need to know what you want to accomplish. But the last, one of the others is that I find that too many times we have good ideas, but I think they’re leading toward profits, but they’re really not. They’re leaning toward revenue, revenues are a really good thing to provide, but there’s not always a good margin of revenue.

 

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Focusing Forward: Lead to Make Your Business Grow

 

So I like to emphasize that, whatever good idea you have, be sure it has a good margin to it because it’s profits that you’re after, not just revenue. But my building business was getting shut down. I’ve done so many other things. But back in the 80s, many times I had to take a contract just to make payroll, just to keep people employed.

 

That wasn’t any fun at all. No, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t make any money. I was working to keep them working. That’s not the kind of business that I like to see folks get into. And last but not least, I like to emphasize achievement lead to achieve. Lead to make your business grow, not just maintain, not just to get, not just to give yourself a better lifestyle, which is, so much a part of what I see so many of the small, businesses, entrepreneurs, and even the smaller mid-level businesses, so much of their business is paying for their personal lifestyle.

 

In order to have the valuations you want in your business, in order for it to grow and have the money, you need to both create cash flow as well as offer any capital. You need to keep that valuation in your business and achieve a higher level. So those are the kinds of things that I think are really, really important to bring out of the book.

 

But my last chapter really sums it up. And if there’s no other rule than anybody else, remember, remember this short phrase for 1230, 65, 412, 365, four major summits a year where you look at where are you going and how are you going to get there? And you spend your time more on what the company is going to do to get there than you do on the reports that everybody’s comfortable with.

 

12 months a year you back up and you spend on a monthly meeting, not a summit, but a monthly meeting. Then you spend your time on hitting our goals? Whatever. What are we meeting? What goals are we meeting? What do we need to start doing? What do we need to start doing? What are the unintended consequences that we’re dealing with?

 

What are the unspoken things that are going on that we need to talk about to resolve a conflict across departments? All those things need to happen in a monthly meeting. And then 365 gets up every morning knowing what you’re doing. You have to do this daily. You’ve got to understand what you do every day of your 365.

 

If you’re a CEO, it’s a one, a different set of things then a C-suite leader, or then somebody that’s working to write a report or make a sales call or do something else. But everybody in the organization, from the CEO all the way down, needs to get up every day with their specific things. They’re going to do it.

 

365 that makes their business and their job go better and better every day. And that rolls up through the four, 12 through 65 to make a business both more profitable, but make people more invested in how the business is going to grow and be successful. I love daily discipline. great framework too. So I got that in my notes, the 412 6365.

 

And thanks very much for that, John. And I know that our time is quickly coming to an end here. But before we go, before we close out and say goodbye, any final advice that you like to share with Onward Nation business owners? Anything you think we might have missed? And then please tell us the best way to connect with you, my friend.

 

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Focusing Forward: Last Bit of Advice from John

 

Okay. Thank you so much. Probably the biggest thing that I really would like to leave your listeners with is the word consistency. If you’re a CEO or you’re a C-suite leader or you’re a formal on this job side or wherever you are in the organization, consistency in terms of you as a person and the things you do underscores both your integrity and your ability to lead others in what you do.

 

If you say something one way and do something else, you lose the value of that trust. So that’s easy to understand. If you’re down on the on the line, but so often times you see it missed at the business office level or at the C-suite level, where one, hot item after another keeps rolling through and they don’t see the consistency, both in actions, decisions or, words that reinforce where you want to go and how you company is going to enhance the lives of those who touch.

 

And that undermines both the consistency of the organization and your integrity. So be consistent, be stable, be the same. So your employees know that, they can depend on who you are and where the company is going in the same manner that that’s the one that I would leave you with. Awesome. And what’s the best way for Onward Nation business owners to connect with you, John?

 

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Focusing Forward: How to Connect with John

 

I’m available on my website, FocusForwardLeadership.com. I’m available on email. John at focus forward leadership.com. And if you would, I’d prefer you connect with me one of those two ways phone numbers get to be so busy that I’m not always able to answer those. But I am open to both email and other kinds of connections to the website.

 

[email protected]. Okay Onward Nation, no matter how many notes you took or how often you go back and re-listen to John’s words of wisdom, which I sure hope that you do. But the key is you have to take action. You have to take the generosity of knowledge that he shared with you, and the principles and the leadership lessons.

 

Take them, apply them into your business right away and accelerate your results. And John, we all have the same 86,400 seconds in a day, and I’m grateful again that Henry thought to introduce us and that you said yes to coming on to the show and and to be our guide to help us move our businesses onward that next level, and especially being able to navigate this crisis that we’re all working through.

 

Thank you so much, John, for sharing your insights and wisdom with us today. Steve, thank you so much has been a pleasure to be with you. 

 

This episode is complete, so head over to OnwardNation.com for show notes and more food to fuel your ambition. Continue to find your recipe for success here at Onward Nation.

 

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