August 5, 2015

Avinash Kaushik

Episode 40: Focus on digital marketing and data analytics, with Avinash Kaushik.

Avinash Kaushik is the co-Founder of Market Motive Inc and the Digital Marketing Evangelist for Google. His prior professional experience includes key roles at Intuit, DirecTV, Silicon Graphics in the US & DHL in Saudi Arabia.

Through his blog, Occam’s Razor, and his best selling books, Web Analytics: An Hour A Day and Web Analytics 2.0, Avinash has become recognized as an authoritative voice on how marketers, executives teams and industry leaders can leverage data to fundamentally reinvent their digital existence.

Click to tweet: Avinash Kaushik shares his outstanding experience and insights on Onward Nation!

 

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Bounce Rate:

  • The percentage of visitors to a particular website who navigate away from the site almost immediately — (bounce route should be at or below 30 percent).

Reduce Bounce Rate:

  1. Focus on optimizing your display campaigns through targeting
  2. Spend time optimizing your landing pages
  3. Understand why consumers come to your site

Metrics:

  1. Measure your acquisition strategy
  2. Measure consumer behavior on the site
  3. Measure the outcome of a visit

Digital Marketing:

  • Humanise your advertisements — don’t shout at the consumer — connect with the most favorable audience (18-24 years) — build a relationship through their hangout (YouTube)

Incentives:

  • Change the incentive structure — senior leadership has to imagine the endless possibilities — then create based on the vision

How best to connect with Avinash:

Transcript:

Get ready to find your recipe for success from America’s top business owners here at Onward Nation, with your host Stephen Woessner.

Stephen W.: Hey Onward Nation, this is Stephen Woessner. Are you ready to move your business onward to that next level? Then sign up for our free training session at moveonwardworkshop.com, and I’ll share success strategies and ideas I’ve learned from today’s top business owners. I promise it will be awesome, onward with gusto.

I have the honor and privilege to be with one of our experts today, his name is Avinash Kaushik, and he is the digital marketing evangelist for Google and co-founder or Market Motive. He has been a wonderful mentor to me, I’ve learned so much from him, and he’s a great friend. Thank you, Avinash for joining is today, very much.

Avinash K.: Thank you, Stephen. Great to be here.

Stephen W.: Thank you. Let’s start with some of the questions I have prepared for the interview. If you can give us just an overview of the definition, your definition of analytics, that would be a great place to start.

Avinash K.: There are hundreds of them. My favorite definition is data that you use to make smarter decisions about your business, that’s as simple as that. I think I quickly sort of break it into two components, the practice of analytics, one is the boring part and one is the interesting part. The interesting part I define as the business of data analysis, and that’s when you actually get into the data and make love to it, and try and figure out if you teased out something really interesting that adds value to your business. The boring part is the data reporting part, where we sometimes falsely believe as businesses that the sheer act of collecting data and puking it out [inaudible 00:01:50] somehow makes our businesses smart.

When you think about analytics, think of those two things, data reporting and data analysis. Data reporting is one of those painful things in life you have to do, you spent 20% of your time on it, but data analysis is where the world of analytics comes alive and adds value to any business on the planet.

Stephen W.: Let’s put it into the construct of me as a business owner or those business owners who are watching this video. What are the key insights or data points or the metrics that I should be looking at? What should I really care about pulling out of my analytics?

Avinash K.: Absolutely. Let’s look at three quick different examples. A lot of companies have no idea if their marketing is bringing them the best possible people to their digital existence or when a person arrives at their door, in this case let’s say their website or mobile site or desktop, it doesn’t matter, is that is the greeting really great? Do you say hello very nicely? I tell people that if you’re starting the business of analytics one of the first metrics you should look at is one of my favorite metrics, it’s called bounce rates. The way that I define bounce rate is from a customer perspective it measures the following phenomenon, “I came, I puked, I left.” It’s this really interesting metric that’s available in Adobe SiteCatalyst, in Google Analytics, Webtrends, any tool you have access to. It actually immediately shows you are you bringing the right people to your website and how many of those puke and leave right away, because it turns out they’re not the right people.

If you’re selling underwear and your site is … and your ads were targeting people who want tires. Stupid. On the other side, if you are selling underwear, I do want underwear and I came, and you have the world’s most hideous unsexy page, like I’m out. It’s such a small, tiny, little thing that very quickly helps you diagnose that something is wrong, that is what I mean by very quick actionable analytics.

Here is another example, yesterday I was really worried about how to go and find the weakness of my competitors so I could destroy them or I just crush them to death. In the real world this is really hard to do, but what I ended up doing is I just typed in www.compete.com, and Compete offers some free analytics reports, and a lot of them for the people who pay for it. You type in the name of your company and type in the name of your competitor, and in like a few seconds it helps you understand what is the traffic patterns on both these websites, yours and your direct competitor. It tells you what keywords drives traffic to them. It tells you what display campaigns they’re running that drives traffic to them. It helps you understand what the age, education levels of people who go to your competitor versus you. It actually even tells you on this one keyword that you’re fighting head-to-head, how much are they more effective than you, what are the affiliates that are really working great for you.

Think about it like at the end of 20 minutes I have understood what my competitor is doing that is working really well for them, and what I’m doing that is not working well or working well, but this context is really hard to find in the real world and yet when it comes to digital we have access to our competitors data on our fingertips. Then you can use that to be much smarter.

My last favorite example is possibly my favorite metric on the whole wide world. I think in my first book I said, “If I had to go to a deserted island I would not take Angelina Jolie. I would take this metric.” The metric is task completion rate, and what happens is after people visit your website and when they leave you ask them three simple questions and you say, “Why were you here? It doesn’t matter what we are selling, but why did you come here?” The second question is, “Whatever you were here for, did you complete your task? And if you did not, why not?”

Think of the amazing things that you get out of it, the first thing is you understand the difference between why you created the website and why people actually came. There’s a dissonance there, and there always is, no matter how smart you think you are there always is. Then the customers tell you how much you suck, I love it because they’ll say, “Oh no, I came here to buy.” My task completion is 20%, so 80% of the people who came to buy could not complete their task. Don’t you want to kill yourself at that point?

Stephen W.: That’s good information.

Avinash K.: Then in the customers own voice they tell you what to fix. Oftentimes when it comes to the context of predictive, when it comes to all these data, we tend to think of it in terms of quantitative analysis. I am a huge fan of qualitative analysis.

My third example is not trying to get at what is happening, but why is it happening, and usually we have such amazing confidence in Google Analytics, we have such amazing confidence in SiteCatalyst that we think we have everything, but all of that gives us the what, it doesn’t give us the why. My third example is all about the why, what can we understand from our customer in their own voice and words, and qualitatively that we can then use to go improve our business? These are like three different examples that really show you the depth and breadth of data you have access to, and the kinds of super smart business decisions you can make, at least when it comes to digital. It’s just mind-blowing.

Stephen W.: That’s really, really good stuff. Let’s go back to bounce rate a little bit, because you know that’s one of my favorites too. I’ve taken from your lessons before, 30% baseline is a great place to go, but if we can strive to go deeper that’s great, but why do you think 30% is an intermediate or a goal place where somebody should start?

Avinash K.: The way I tell people is, “Look, if you are doing anything over 60% then you really suck.” What the hell is happening there? Right? Because remember a lot of people say, “No, no, no, people came to my site, they see one page and they find all the information, and if they leave that’s fine.” Well, my question to them is, “How did you make money?” Unless you’re running a nonprofit entity, which I adore, thank you for running nonprofit, but as long as you’re not running a nonprofit entity how did you make money? The person has to do something so that you make money. I tell people, “If it’s almost 60%, like there’s something majorly wrong. You should think about it.” Anything over 40% starts to worry me, especially if I’m spending money on campaigns. If I’m spending money I don’t want four out of 10 people to leave without doing anything, that seems criminal, but you can get the bounce rate to 0%.

I’ve had the privilege of analyzing many kinds of websites, and some of the websites I’ve analyzed have very attractive content that is only targeted to certain audiences of a certain age. Even with that fantastic content you can get it to 0%. Just remember you would always get a certain number of people who will leave right away, they just isn’t a fit or they just don’t like the page and it’s okay. I try to come up with some space, it’s like 30%, now if you get at that, that’s good enough. There are bigger problems for us to worry about, and that’s how I sort of arrived at that number, but for the most part what you want to look out for are big outliers.

If you have a really high [inaudible 00:09:21] you should look about it and think about it, and focus on that or for your campaigns, your affiliate campaigns where you spend money, your paid search campaigns where you spend money, your e-mail marketing campaigns where you’re spending money, your display campaigns where you’re spending money, the ads that I’m running on social media, on Facebook, all the places where you pay you are actually paying money for every single person to come. You don’t want seven out of 10 people to just leave instantly, that’s insane so you should go fix that.

Stephen W.: What would be … If you were to recommend two or three things that business owners could do to reduce bounce what might those be?

Avinash K.: I have a post and maybe we can link to it. I have like six strategies that I recommend people to focus on, and those six strategies both worked to reduce bounce rate and increase conversion. They are these really cool strategies you can use to do both of those things, because you can have a 0% bounce rate and 0% conversion. Actually it’s entirely possible.

Stephen W.: I don’t want it.

Avinash K.: Exactly. That’s exactly right. You’re not just tossing and bouncing, it’s two things, you won both. One of the simplest things to fix is if you’re running advertising channels, advertising programs a great way to reduce bounce rate is to make sure that your targeting is set correctly. Here is a good example, I have a friend in Philadelphia who runs a furniture business, and one of his best-selling business is a nightstand, a beautiful, gorgeous handcraft whatnot. He started running campaigns on Bing and Google, and it’s like nightstand’s targeting everything. He noticed that his bounce rate was running close to 90%, and he’s like, “No, no, no, my stuff is really good.” It is good, and the website is kind of decent too even though he’s a small medium-sized business.

Then he noticed that the way that he has set up his campaigns, when he was doing a broad match at nightstands, and most of the clicks were coming through by match on the keyword query one night stands. It turns out a lot of people are looking for one night stands online, and nothing to do with us, nothing to do with our business of selling actual nightstands. It’s a quick way to fix bounce rate, like negative match the word first, no advertising the word first or one, no one night stands. We don’t want that. You can reduce bounce rate by making sure your campaigns are optimized, in your display campaigns make sure your [inaudible 00:11:49] is optimized, and the [inaudible 00:11:52] is optimized to be landing on the right page. That’s the first focus on optimizing the targeting options you have.

If you’re selling Viagra to 60 plus year old person, and God bless you, it’s totally fine, don’t target websites and things that are for 20 year old people because they may not have that problem, same thing in other businesses too. The second way to reduce bounce rate is really spend time optimizing your landing pages. It is criminal how landing pages are so bad.

I just was looking on my phone for men’s aftershave, because I don’t like the one I have right now, and so I saw an ad from Gillette. I say, “Oh, perfect, Gillette aftershave. It makes total sense.” Sorry, Old Spice. Old Spice, it makes sense totally. Old Spice, all the social media campaigns, awesome. I clicked on the ad on AdWords on my phone and the landing page is about deodorants. I’m like, “Wait, what the heck was that? Did I not see what I want? Is that not how your ad showed up? What the hell is that?” Fix that because I bounced instantly. Old Spice, you go fix it naturally, but also the calls to actions that you have, the copy, the image. We have a lot of really great A/B testing tools, many free, some paid that are really great to improve landing pages, that’s your second strategy.

Then the third one, I think is to use your task completion rates, survey based analysis, but try and really understand why people come to our website. Oftentimes you can’t perfectly guess what I want exactly, it’s kind of hard to get for a percent of the people, but if we understood really well the top three reasons people come to our site, on our landing page our main copy and everything could be about a core thing that we’re selling and we are pimping or the left inside or the right inside we could say, “Ah, we could do some cross-sells and upsells,” and what happens is if we don’t match the intent perfectly we have a couple of small on the side gateways that allow people to go deeper, and find the thing they actually want versus the thing, maybe by mistake they showed up.

Those are three quick strategies to go and reduce your bounce rates, it’s not a big deal.

Stephen W.: Those are really good, really good.

Avinash K.: Thank you.

Stephen W.: Oh my gosh. I remember studying about the task completion rate and I’m thinking, “Wow, there are so many opportunities we can put that into action,” and I’m thinking, “As soon as I’m done with this I need to go back and listen to it, and capture all of these notes, and put those things into action too.” That’s really, really good.

If you were a business owner and just trying to bring clarity to all of these, I mean all of these are great recommendations and they might start to get overwhelmed, what are the vital metrics, those two or three things that they should really, really pay attention to? Bounce rate is probably one of them, but what are those things that if they looked at nothing else, and just looked at those, what would they be?

Avinash K.: I can tell you that anybody who answers that question is stupid. If you ask an expert that question and they answered it then that’s … or maybe that’s stupid not an expert. That’s astonishingly arrogant, I think, and the reason I say that is because a lot of my belief and practice is that every business is actually unique. Both you and I, Stephen, could be selling women’s underwear and yet our strategy could be dramatically different, our target audience could be dramatically different. The way that you and I are running our web business in context of our retail stores as an example, could be completely different. When we ask an expert, “What’s the best metric? Tell me the best metrics.” The reason that, that answer is not very smart is because they have not bothered to sit down for even like 10 minutes and try to understand, “Stephen, what are you really solving for? Well, Avinash, what are you really solving for? And then let me recommend the metrics that tie to your strategy.”

That’s why I think that, that’s a very dangerous question to answer without understanding what the business owner is solving for. I wanted to give that caveat.

Stephen W.: That’s very good.

Avinash K.: That’s very important. Don’t ask people that as a business owner. The thing that you should strive for is say, “Can I have like three minutes of your time, I want to take two and a half minutes of the three minutes with you to tell you what I actually do on the internet, what I actually do in the real world, and in the last 30 seconds you can tell me what metrics are relevant.” I’m telling you if the expert is really an expert, all they need is 30 seconds, but you spend most of your time telling them what do you actually do, what are your advertising strategies, who are the customers you’re targeting. I can turn that around really quickly. I wanted that uber thing. I don’t want to be so arrogant to say, “[Inaudible 00:16:44] in the entire world these three metrics are golden.” But in general I say that if you’re worried and overwhelmed you should aim to have metrics … a key performance indicator for your metric in three categories, three categories.

I’m going to give you some suggestions for those, but three categories are very important. First, “Is there a metric, one metric I can use to measure the success of my acquisition strategy? Everything I do to attract people to my business, my website, and everything that happens before they show up, before they show up.” Here is a great metric for your acquisition strategy, your cost for acquisition, because you spend a lot of money on advertising you should look at your CPA. How much does every click or every person cost? It’s a nice metric to use or the number of new visitors you’re able to attract from one of these sources or a whole bunch of them. There are a lot of strategies that you could use for acquisition, but you should have one, at least one.

The second one is, “What is a KPI that can help you understand the behavior of people on my website once they land? What is happening there? Is there a metric that can tell me that?” The bounce rate kind of begins to start that journey, but page depth is a really good one, how deep do people get? The percent of people who see videos on your website is a great metric because it’s a longer commitment they’re making to you, or the number of people who have visited my website more than five times in the last seven days. That’s a really great metric, because it’s showing you a certain sense of loyalty. The second category is behavior, the first one is acquisition.

The third category is outcomes, at least have one metric that measures outcomes, and that is, “As a result of this person coming to my site and having a behavior, did we get any win-win outcomes? Did I make any money and were they satisfied?” We want both. We don’t want to be selfish lovers. The conversion rate is a great outcomes KPI. Customer satisfaction is a great outcomes KPI. NPS, net promoter scores is a great outcomes KPI. The number of micro conversions is a great KPI for outcomes. The average owner value is a great KPI. The number of donations to a nonprofit is a great outcomes KPI.

There are KPIs that fall in each of these three categories, but as a small business owner or say it’s a person who’s really busy you should say, I’m going to go back to my team and say, “I want you to recommend, to begin with, just three KPIs for me. One that helps me understand the effectiveness of my acquisition strategy. One that helps me understand the effectiveness of my website experience, third that helps me understand if there were good outcomes from our website.” That process can help you distill down to just a critical few very quickly.

Stephen W.: That was awesome. I’m still actually thinking a little bit about the funny story that you told me at lunch. The reason why I thought about it was so relevant, it’s because we’ve got an advertiser who thinks that they’re doing really, really well, and they’re spending a lot of money to hopefully do really well. Then you talked about YouTube and how important putting the right content and not just putting TV content on to YouTube, share that story for what you can hear on this interview.

Avinash K.: This is a very large, one of the largest companies in the planet, and I don’t use that as a metaphor, it really is pretty big. One of the things I find endlessly fascinating, I mean a lot of my love and focus is in the area of social and mobile, and as a part of social I spent some time on YouTube in my day-to-day job and otherwise, but not as much as I do, let’s say in Google Plus or Facebook or Twitter, which are I’m more fascinated, endlessly fascinated by. It’s in this case one of the data sets I came across is how fascinating it is that if you cluster media consumption by heavy TV viewers and light TV viewers, heavy TV viewers are people who watch more than 90 half hours of TV every week. It seems a lot.

Stephen W.: That’s like 45 hours.

Avinash K.: Yes.

Stephen W.: 45 hours of TV.

Avinash K.: Every week, that’s heavy TV viewers. There are a lot of them. The light TV viewers, people who watch less than 19, 1-9, half hours of TV a week, that’s about eight and a half hours.

Stephen W.: But clarify the percentages of US population that were in those categories because that was staggering.

Avinash K.: A vast majority of people fall in heavy, which is insane. The thing that I found is YouTube and digital video, YouTube specifically actually in this case, way over indexes for light TV viewers. It was 69 for heavy TV viewers and like 120 or so for light TV viewers, all of these are [inaudible 00:21:50], if there’s a market I’m really interested in, an audience of light TV viewers who I can’t hit up on TV I can find them on YouTube. But what’s more fascinating, the thing that blew my mind is that for the 18 to 24 age group YouTube over indexes a 187 compared to any other age. I was astonished. Basically the audience in YouTube is 18 to 24, and YouTube has a 79% reach in their audience. TV can only reach 23% of their audience, 18 to 20-

Stephen W.: Staggering.

Avinash K.: Staggering. Staggering. Basically all people watch TV, a lot of it. Young people don’t watch a lot of TV. Now TV consumption in America is still very important and we should do a lot of advertising on TV, but what that shows is the audience in YouTube is very unique, and the opportunity on YouTube, in digital video, in Vimeo and other places that are digital video destinations, is not to copy-paste your 30-second spot and shout at people repeatedly just like you do in TV, but to do something more unique.

I’ll give you a great example of that. If you go to the Dove United States channel on YouTube there is a video called Camera Shy. You should watch the video. I mean I have two little children, I particularly was like, “Oh, I’m crying. This is so good,” but it’s this sort of 90-second video of how a lot of women of all ages, young, old, they never want their picture taken, they’re always very shy and they’re just covering their face. It’s such a beautiful video and it creates this deep human connection with the length of time, and the ability to be creative, and in a way that you can’t do on TV because of many restrictions. There are lots of creative ads on TV, I’m not saying that, and yet if you look at Dove’s competitors, pick any competitor of Dove and go to their YouTube channel it is full of their TV commercials with Hollywood actresses. Here is the astonishing part, that video by Dove, without any advertising support has 18 million views on YouTube.

Stephen W.: Impressive.

Avinash K.: Dove’s competitor’s videos average out at 600 views per video, because there is nothing human about it. They’re doing 1920’s TV advertising on YouTube, on a medium where people are engaging, engaging in depth with breadth, and the amount of social sharing on that video, astonishingly huge. What this company is doing on a channel where you can build relationship and have amazing creativity, they just shout, and that doesn’t work. I think that it implies a lot of change to marketing today in most consumer product goods companies, Dove is one of them. A lot of people are employed in their roles to shout at people, because all the mediums that have worked for the last 80 years, all they could allow you to do is shout, shout on radio, shout on magazines, shout on TV, and by the way a lot of it still works.

We’re living in a world where all this is flipping and if you want to connect with the most favorable audience you have, the 18 to 24, they’re not on TV, they’re on YouTube, they’re on the internet. Then you think of that shift, think about also leaving behind your hang ups, leaving behind the things that might have made you successful for the last 80 years, but for the next eight years, in less than eight years you’re going to die if you don’t give up on those hang ups. It will mean that your company will lose the opportunity to tons of more agile and nimble competitors who don’t have an 80 year old hang up.

Stephen W.: Well, what I took out of that conversation at lunch too was if you’re going to be on YouTube produce content for YouTube, and I think that’s what you’re saying, because the impact could be so much more beneficial, as the Dove example, versus just putting broadcast TV.

Avinash K.: Exactly.

Stephen W.: On to that channel.

Avinash K.: Or extend your discussions, Method makes soap, hand wash, I don’t know why all my examples are [inaudible 00:26:03] today. We can find other ones too, but Method makes soap, I love the soap. It’s a very expensive soap for no reason, the bottle is just pretty. I paid more money, it seems idiotic, but I did. The Method runs small TV commercials, some very small, it’s a small company, but what they do is even if they have a TV commercial they have a lot of webisodes that extend the discussion. You make a connection on TV and you build a relationship in YouTube. There’s a very big difference, these two words, connections to relationships, and again it is … in our discussion today we’re using YouTube as a proxy for how the web requires a fundamental change.

If you don’t like YouTube you can use Vimeo, a great website, it doesn’t matter, but it’s this subtle but important difference between connections and relationships applies to the web. It applies to Facebook. It applies to Twitter, and you as a company have to think about what you can do to reimagine the implications between these shift, and if you do you’ll be fine. If not, no amount of data and predictiveness can save you.

Stephen W.: If you’re a business owner and you’re watching this and you’re getting all these great stuff, you’re thinking, “I don’t have time to do this. I should just give this to my marketing team or I should give it to somebody in IT.” Why should business owners and maybe … it seems like a really obvious answer to me and you, but I would really like to hear your take on this, because I get the pushback, I’m sure you do too when meeting with executives and so forth, why should I be plugged into this instead of just giving it to somebody on my team?

Avinash K.: It’s because if you care about it and you understand it, and perhaps by coming to Predictive ROI Live, then you will be rich. If you just dumped it on somebody else lap you would be poor and that should be incentive enough, and I say this for this reason the biggest change in … The other day I was [inaudible 00:28:13], I did a keynote and this person came up and asked me a very hard question. It was this, “Oh, it’s a fabulous keynote. I love you, la-la-la-la-la, but as the CEO of this multinational corporation if there is just one thing I could do to drive all this change, what would it be?”

Stephen W.: It’s like the one question I asked you two minutes ago.

Avinash K.: I’m like, “What?” I just finished telling him 12 things he has to do and, “How do I pick one?” Like which one of my children I sacrifice? But thinking immensely, trying to come up with something smart because the audience was really great. I actually said to him that, “If there is only one thing I would have him change, I would change the incentive structure inside the company.” I would change the way people’s bonuses are computed, because in this company the bonuses haven’t digitized. The bonuses are still running on newspaper, TV, magazine mental models. What happens when they do that? There’s no incentive to actually try cool, radical things and behave better. Now why is it that those incentives are not there? Those incentives are not there because the senior most leadership in the company cannot imagine the possibilities that exists.

I did this keynote and Mitchell, one of my really wonderful friends and [inaudible 00:29:33], is he put it in his book, this whole … my speech about the web should be in your blood. That’s the reason that I think senior leaders in companies should understand this at a deep level, because if it’s not inside you, like at a DNA level, you don’t understand the incredible number of amazing possibilities, if you can’t even think about them, nobody else is going to do them. But if you have the capacity to imagine then you can create the right incentives and then give it to your marketing team. You hired smart people, they can do everything, but if you can’t imagine the possibilities you have no idea how to think about them and you would never incentivize them to do those things. Then you will continue to be stupid and get stupider with every passing year, that’s why a senior leader should care.

Stephen W.: This is amazing. I mean pack-ful of really great stuff, really, really good.

Avinash K.: Thank you, Stephen.

Stephen W.: Fantastic, but this is why I’m so excited for you to be at live, because of these great insights, really, really good stuff.

Avinash K.: I’m very excited and honored to be asked to be a part of the event. They have a great lineup, that is fabulous. My good friend Gary will be there, he’s always awesome and entertaining and we’ve done so many conferences together. People are going to be excited with the agenda we have. My goal very much is to bring a mix of sort of the things that we’ve heard in our discussion. I’ve written two best-selling books on analytics and data, and yet I hope people feel that I’m not obsessed about data, I’m obsessed about creating amazing, incredible consumer experiences and creating businesses that make a lot of money. Making money is good, somebody said that, right? It will be a mix of this, the things that I hope the audience can look forward to is this mix of business strategy and marketing tactics, underneath it with this foundation of data.

One of the cool things about the web, one of my most favorite retweeted tweets of mine has been, “God created the internet so we could fail faster.” Right? That’s what we’re going to do, we’re going to give out a whole bunch of ideas that you can fail quickly at so you can learn what you’re really good at. It’s very hard to do in other platforms, but that is what the internet is good at, and hopefully our audience will find that to be a lot of value.

Stephen W.: Thanks for your time today. We’re going to put some more free resources and tools at predictiveroilive/avinash-

Avinash K.: Thank you.

Stephen W.: I said that wrong, predictiveroilive.com/avinash.

Avinash K.: Yes, of course.

Stephen W.: So you can get more of this great interview and thanks very much for your time and your hospitality today, it’s great.

Avinash K.: Absolutely, thank you.

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