Predictive ROI CSO Hannah Roth Reveals The Gap Between Being Admired and Being Chosen

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Over the past decade, we’ve had more than 1200 conversations with CEOs. Bestselling authors in agency leaders. And here’s what we’re seeing. Agencies that have built in authority position no longer struggle to be seen. Instead, they struggled to activate latent demand. Agency leaders have said to us, it’s exactly where we’re sitting right now. Authority without demand. So welcome to the in-demand agency podcast presented by predictive ROI is sparked by research from the Harvard Business Review.
00;00;43;15 – 00;01;24;11
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Edelman, Gallup Agency, Core all showing that trust has moved upstream in today’s marketplace. Authority earns attention. Yes, but demand is what turns attention into action. Each episode deconstructs the science of demand from behavioral psychology, decision making, research, and the cross-industry strategies behind why and how B2B buyers make their decisions. We interview the world’s leading behavioral scientists, agency network leaders, and strategists from industries far beyond ours, experts who are reshaping how demand works.
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I’m your host, Steven Westerner, and in each episode will translate their insights directly into the agency world. In these conversations are now being heard by a community of over 30,000 agency owners and their teams. With me for today’s episode is Hannah Roth, Chief Strategy Officer and my business partner here at predictive ROI in. Hannah spends her time in the field working alongside agency owners in their teams, studying what happens when an agency has done the hard work of building authority.
00;02;04;02 – 00;02;38;07
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But their prospects say things like, wow, these people are smart. Wow, these people are helpful. But those same prospects are not saying, wow, these people can solve my problem. Wow. I cannot lose them. In that gap between being admired and being chosen is what Hannah and I are going to be deconstructing today. She calls it the authority demand ecosystem, and most agencies do not yet know it exists.
00;02;38;10 – 00;02;58;15
Unknown
Obviously it feels lovely. Anytime somebody says, wow, you’re so smart or these people are so smart. But what we’ve seen is there’s something there that’s missing that doesn’t take you from, wow, these people are smart to, wow, I need to hire these people. And so in my opinion, the reason is because I think that you used to be able to say knowledge is power, right?
00;02;58;16 – 00;03;25;13
Unknown
And I believe that I do believe that knowledge is power. But with AI and how things are accelerating and just how accessible knowledge has become, I think knowledge has become very cheap. Anna, thanks very much for joining us. I am thrilled for our time together. I am so excited. So thank you for the invitation. Well, you are very, very welcome.
00;03;25;13 – 00;03;34;01
Unknown
So here’s here’s where I like to dive in, sort of a, you know, really big piece right away.
00;03;34;04 – 00;04;05;22
Unknown
So I think, you know, but I have always admired you for your gift of how you see, how you see situations, how you see challenges, how you see how you see them differently, the way that you see insights, the way that you make observations is different. And you pick up patterns that other people miss. And you seem to always be on this quest, or you seem to have this hunger to find the truth.
00;04;05;24 – 00;04;30;23
Unknown
You have zero tolerance for hyperbole. You always want to make sure that your recommendations are researched, backed, and maybe, maybe all of that can be summed up in the fact that you’re a data scientist by trade. Or maybe there’s a different sort of pivotal moment or some sort of explanation for that. So help us better understand the superpower, because I think it absolutely is one of your superpowers.
00;04;30;23 – 00;04;51;28
Unknown
And how you cut through that and see things that others miss. So take us there first, and then we’ll dive in with the others. Okay. Well, thank you for of all for all of those lovely compliments. It is always nice to hear what people admire about you. So thank you, I appreciate that. No, I think you mentioned a key term there which is pivotal moments.
00;04;51;28 – 00;05;36;20
Unknown
And I think that obviously, the way that I observe and look at patterns and the way that I get recommendations is based on my time as a data scientist. You know, my background, but I actually think I was I think I’ve always kind of been a scientist even before that was my like, recognized title. And so when I think about a pivotal moment of when this became really
solidified, I can go back to a time when I was in college, I was doing a paper on file memetics, which is a fancy way of saying we look at nature to engineer, you know, make innovative engineering decisions.
00;05;36;27 – 00;06;07;20
Unknown
So I was studying biomimetic and I was physically looking at pump back whales because they are incredibly hydrodynamic. They’re incredibly acrobatic despite their large size. And so one of the things that has happened in immigration is we’ve looked at humpback whales to say, how can we make things more aerodynamic or how can we make things more hydrodynamic? And so I started, you know, looking into all of this around this topic, you know, putting together my paper.
00;06;07;20 – 00;06;32;17
Unknown
And as I was working with one of my professors on it, and she noticed that I was using a lot of assumptive language, you know, I think or I, you know, maybe this is why or I believe because I was kind of just digging into this, and she looked at me very pointedly and she said, well, if I put you in front of the class and you say you think or you assume, I will never invite you to speak in front of the class again.
00;06;32;19 – 00;06;50;29
Unknown
So at the time it felt a little harsh, but I think it has served me well. And so one of the things to your point, in my kind of quest for truth, or when I’m giving recommendations, is that lesson comes back to me. I don’t want to give empty recommendations. I want to be able to defend the recommendations.
00;06;51;00 – 00;07;26;19
Unknown
I want to have a defensible position. And so that kind of shapes, I think, how I operate and and in client sessions or in leadership sessions, and I think that’s really ingrained into my DNA. Well, in candidly, friends, one of the reasons why I was so excited for Hannah to join me for this episode, this being episode two last week was a solo case where I where I introduced in that solo cast the authority demand ecosystem that Hannah and Eric are the chief architects of.
00;07;26;19 – 00;07;48;25
Unknown
And you know, I was excited about being able to have this conversation now with Hannah to be able to add more context, more meat, more context to that ecosystem, but then also from the point of view of it’s defensible, it’s research backed. We’re not making things up here. This is not a term that we just came up with like, oh, well, that sounds really good, right?
00;07;48;26 – 00;08;14;05
Unknown
That’s not the point of this new show. The point of this new podcast, the In Demand Agency podcast, is to elevate, that is to have things that are research backed, how we’re going to be interviewing the world’s leading authorities and scientists in many areas. Hannah is a scientist by trade, so it made sense that Hannah be that first guest that I interview in order to start taking this conversation deeper.
00;08;14;05 – 00;08;53;26
Unknown
So, Hannah, thanks very much for for joining me. And I’m really excited about this conversation. Yes. Me too. Thank you for letting me dork out in the first three minutes there. And I go get a start. Well, so as you know, in the in the previous episode, episode one in the solo cast, I asked I asked our audience, our friends, to to sketch out a box on the left or square on the left, where on the right, and then to identify the square on the left as authority in the square on the right to identify that box or that square as demand Bruce Bridge in the center.
00;08;53;26 – 00;09;19;18
Unknown
And one of the things we talked about underneath the box on the left were some statements. And it’s lovely to hear those statements. But then there’s also something missing from those statements. So like when an agency owner hears a prospect say, wow, these people are smart. Most agencies and most agency owners in their teams will consider that to be a win.
00;09;19;20 – 00;09;39;28
Unknown
But there’s something missing in those words, too. So. So what do you think is missing? And maybe why a statement like that isn’t enough anymore for where we’re at? Yeah, I think that’s a great question. And it is something that we hear a lot. And candidly, we used to hear this about us. Right. And then there was still something missing.
00;09;39;28 – 00;10;02;15
Unknown
So it was sort of through the exploration of our own journey that we, I think came to a lot of these realizations and insights. So obviously it feels lovely anytime somebody says, wow, you’re so smart or these people are so smart. But what we’ve seen is there’s a turn of not being smart enough to get hired. Right? Or not, there’s something there.
00;10;02;16 – 00;10;29;23
Unknown
There’s something there that’s missing that doesn’t doesn’t take you from, wow, these people are smart to wow, I need to hire these people. And so in my opinion, the reason is because I think that you used to be able to say knowledge is power, right? And I believe that I do believe that knowledge is power. But with AI and how things are accelerating and just how accessible knowledge has become.
00;10;29;24 – 00;10;57;24
Unknown
I think knowledge has become very cheap. I think it’s really easy now to either become smart or pretend you’re smart, or be perceived as smart, which are all a little bit different there than
actually, you know, being smart. And so I think that’s kind of been one of the big shifts in the way that especially B2B buyers are behaving.
00;10;57;24 – 00;11;22;18
Unknown
Being smart is not good enough anymore because a lot of people can seem smart, so a lot of people can get smart. It’s I think, more about what you do with those smarts that matters these days. So this is this is reminding me of a conversation that you and I were having. Maybe it was after after a strategy session or actually, no, I think it was during our most recent quarterly planning session.
00;11;22;18 – 00;11;54;10
Unknown
And you said that you said that AI AI makes it easy for someone or an agency to be seen as prolific. Yes, but that doesn’t mean that the content is helpful at depth. And really, that’s where it matters is like, yes, you can use a variety of AI tools and MCP connectors and all of the, you know, API keys that you want in order to create a lot of something.
00;11;54;10 – 00;12;25;05
Unknown
But is it taking your knowledge to a depth that is truly helpful for your audience and to also demonstrate mastery? And but most importantly about that mastery is can you be helpful in solving business issues and challenges? Right. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the interesting stats that I came across recently is 73% of B2B buyers will avoid, like avoid a vendor if they’re doing irrelevant outreach.
00;12;25;08 – 00;12;52;03
Unknown
And so that’s where it becomes this, you know, used to to to share authority you have to be prolific. Right. That was one of the things you want to be. You know, everywhere that your prospects are, you want to show up there with something, you know, relevant to talk about. And I think with AI making everything a little bit easier, a little bit faster, a little bit more efficient, one of the things we really have to be careful of is we need to share something profound.
00;12;52;03 – 00;13;18;02
Unknown
It’s not enough to be prolific. Everyone can be prolific these days, right? You can put in something in Clod or ChatGPT and it’ll give you a, you know, an okay blog, you know, about something. But I think to really get people’s attention and stand out in all of that noise, you have to share something profound. You have to share something that’s insightful, that’s irrelevant, that is on the nose helpful.
00;13;18;02 – 00;13;55;08
Unknown
It’s not enough to be present anymore. Yeah, not enough to be prolific anymore. You have to be profound and share something that’s truly different. It’s so good. Imperfect. Sounds goofy to say. Profound is such a profound word, but it’s a powerful litmus test. What you just said that if it’s not insightful, that if it’s not relevant, that if it’s not using your words on the nose helpful, then if, if if a piece of content or whatever is missing those three ingredients, that is not profound.
00;13;55;08 – 00;14;21;19
Unknown
It has to is we talked about in the in the last episode in the solo cast that to have an authority position today is the anti. It’s the it’s the price you have to pay to be in the game, to be in the business development game. If you haven’t done it, then you know you have to pay the ante first and then also to what you’re saying here is how you put that anti on the table really matters
too.
00;14;21;24 – 00;14;49;26
Unknown
Because trying to like pay less than what the toll is required doesn’t get you where you need to be. Like when you’re building your authority position, you must do it in such a way that the content is profound, that it has depth, that is insightful, relevant, on the nose. Helpful, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think where you start to move into that territory, especially in the authority demand ecosystem, is by the trust bridge.
00;14;49;28 – 00;15;21;08
Unknown
Right? That’s where a lot of that becomes that deeper level becomes more relevant. If if you’re trying to cross the truss bridge and pay that toll, you know, there’s certain checks and certain things there that you really have to make sure that you’re doing with excellence. So when you’re when you’re working alongside agencies and their teams, agency owners and their teams in the field and, and you, you hear an agency say, you know, this just doesn’t make any sense to me.
00;15;21;09 – 00;15;47;24
Unknown
I mean, we we have built what seems like a strong authority position, but for Pete’s sake, we seem to have authority without demand. Like like how does that how does that happen? How do you build an authority position, how you recognized in the niche as an expert and yet doesn’t where there’s no demand, or at least maybe not as much as one would hope.
00;15;47;24 – 00;16;11;02
Unknown
So. But you’re having those conversations, so can you peel some of those conversations back a little bit so our friends listening can can better understand those conversations and those situations. And maybe they’ll hear something that they’re feeling two or maybe something different. Yeah, absolutely. A few statements come to mind because this is something that obviously we hear quite often.
00;16;11;04 – 00;16;29;27
Unknown
So one of them is we get good engagement. Our engagement is good. We’re sending a regular newsletter. People are reading it. We attend events. We went to this trade show. We went to that trade show. We were showing up. And then we have a great reputation. We think our clients, when they work with us, they really love us.
00;16;29;27 – 00;16;50;00
Unknown
We have a great reputation and all of those things are lovely. But again, to your point, authority is become sort of table stakes, right? You you expect somebody that you work with to have a good reputation. You expect somebody that you work with to show up. You expect somebody that you work with to be engaging and you want to engage with that person.
00;16;50;00 – 00;17;14;16
Unknown
But I think that there is a lot of proactivity that we have to do these days that we didn’t have to do before. And so I think where agencies are struggling a little bit to kind of activate that demand and really jumpstart that authority and start to move it is, you know, you have to do specific sales outreach.
00;17;14;16 – 00;17;41;16
Unknown
You have to make an ask. You have to show up in a strategic way that is not just a conversation, but a strategic conversation, a sales conversation that doesn’t feel like selling, doesn’t feel like pitching. But I think there’s a real art to this. And this is sort of where, you know, the science of, okay, we can have this formula, we can do this newsletter, we can show up to these trade shows like A plus B equals C.
00;17;41;19 – 00;18;04;23
Unknown
I think this is where it starts to move into the art of how do we how do we architect this in such a way that leads to that next step, instead of just stalling out at wow, that was really helpful. That was a great conversation. Okay, okay. So let’s let’s let’s keep peeling some layers because I think you’re really on to something.
00;18;04;23 – 00;18;39;10
Unknown
So let’s assume that someone listening right now has had the experience where their agency was that this was shared with their agency. This type of statement of the wow, you and your team are incredibly helpful, awesome. And that’s different, as we know from a prospect or a client saying we cannot lose these guys. Like we cannot lose this agency like they’re indispensable.
00;18;39;12 – 00;19;15;00
Unknown
So in in from your point of view in that situation, what what has to shift for the prospective client to say that second statement? Because that’s what the agency really wants. Because if they hear that consistently, then then one could argue, okay, they’re starting to build that in demand reputation. Yeah. So I’m going to answer this in a few different ways, because I think there is something that the agency has to do before that can shift for the prospective client.
00;19;15;00 – 00;19;42;01
Unknown
So from an agency perspective, I think there has to be a lot of clarity around what they offer and who they offer it for. So we work with, you know, some agencies we work with some agencies in the past where they want to niche down, but it’s sort of, well, we don’t want to change our website that much, and we kind of want to be niched behind a curtain or we want to have this other separate site.
00;19;42;04 – 00;20;07;20
Unknown
So I don’t think that that’s that’s working anymore. And actually, the latest research that audience audit did with Army and then also agency core with white label IQ is showing that that buyers want expertise. They they want specialists. They want people who are really experts. So I think that it’s not enough to hide behind, you know, a curtain like hide your niche or not put it on your website.
00;20;07;22 – 00;20;28;23
Unknown
And then I think the other thing that agencies really need to do is they need to be very clear about what they do, and it has to be something that their prospects can’t do for themselves. So let me let me peel that back a little bit because I’m not talking, you know, you have to do something that’s impossible for them to do.
00;20;28;24 – 00;20;52;11
Unknown
There’s a few, a few variations of that. So the first one is capability. So if you’re doing something and your prospects don’t have the necessary things, whether that’s tools or software or whatever it is, they don’t have the capability to do it themselves. Okay. So that’s that’s one way that you show up that you’re able to do something that they’re not able to do for themselves.
00;20;52;15 – 00;21;18;04
Unknown
The second way is expertise. So this is I don’t have the right knowledge. I don’t have the, you know, the right smarts. I don’t know how to run paid ads, like, whatever that thing is, they don’t
have the expertise to do it themselves. And then the last way that you show up that you do something that you can’t do for themselves is capacity.
00;21;18;06 – 00;21;44;01
Unknown
So this is time. I don’t have the time. I don’t have the team, you know, whatever that looks like. So I think that if a prospect is looking for an agency, what they do, who they do it for and how they do it needs to be really clear. It needs to be really obvious and really evident. And then I think that you have to define those things, and then you have to talk about them, and you have to be proactive and you have to reach out.
00;21;44;01 – 00;22;04;24
Unknown
And so this is where you start getting into the trust bridge between the authority and demand, where you’re looking at your opportunities. Right. You’re trying to figure out, okay, who have we talked to recently that is kind of sitting there waiting for something, you know, waiting waiting for us to make a move. So I think you need to map your opportunities.
00;22;04;24 – 00;22;26;00
Unknown
And then I think you need to create different ways to engage in conversation. So we hear a predictive called out the conversation spark. You have to reach out with a compelling thing that they want to say yes to. Sometimes we’ve seen that work with products or services. Overview. Right. Something that’s new or something you put together that’s really helpful.
00;22;26;03 – 00;22;47;01
Unknown
Again, identifying who it’s for and what it is, how it helps. So that’s one way you can do the conversation spark. Another way is if you’ve got some sort of insights or there’s some industry trend offering a brief or strategy session about whatever that is okay is if you’re inviting somebody to that, they’re more likely to say yes instead of, hey, want to come?
00;22;47;02 – 00;23;10;13
Unknown
Listen to me. Pitch for 45 minutes. Obviously, nobody really wants to attend a Tupperware party like that. So I think having people come along to an interesting strategy session or a brief or something where you’re sharing something helpful is a good way to do that, and then obviously showing up in a way that conveys your authority. That is helpful, that is not confusing.
00;23;10;13 – 00;23;30;10
Unknown
They understand why they’re there. They understand what they came for, they get what they came for. And then being able to strategically link that to the next conversation. So one of the
things that I always tell our clients is your goal in the first conversation is not to sell. Your only goal in the first conversation is to get another conversation.
00;23;30;10 – 00;23;55;02
Unknown
You have to show up well enough and be interesting enough and be compelling enough, and be helpful enough to get another conversation to get that second date. Okay, so that’s I hope that answered your question. I know that was sort of a long winded answer, but I think there’s a lot of elements in that. It’s a complicated question, and I think there’s a lot of a lot of different variables that have to be achieved to get the output that you want.
00;23;55;04 – 00;24;23;18
Unknown
Well, you not only answer my question, you sparked five more in I’m not joking. Five more. So here’s here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to take a quick break. So friends we’re going to take a quick break. And when we come back. Here’s here’s the five I’m going to be asking Hannah to give us more of an orientation, because she just actually highlighted several bricks or stones or whatever you’re going to make a bridge out of, you know, components that go into the truss bridge.
00;24;23;18 – 00;24;45;09
Unknown
So you just heard her talk about map your opportunities or map the opportunities. The conversation sparked, the brief showing up, you know, with expertise and so forth. And then the fifth one was your only goal. Get another conversation here a predictive we call that bam bam book a meeting from a meeting. But there’s there’s art and science to how to do that with excellence.
00;24;45;09 – 00;25;18;04
Unknown
So we’re going to take a quick break. And then when we come back we’re going to work through these five pieces. So we’ll be right back. Hey friends, I’d like to share a free resource my predictive ROI team built for you based on the insights and wisdom the Hannah Roth is sharing with you right now. During this episode, if you go to predictive ROI and you can download our free demand activation diagnostic, five questions, three minutes, and I will show you exactly where latent demand is hiding inside your ecosystem.
00;25;18;08 – 00;25;27;05
Unknown
Again, that’s predictive ROI demand to get your free diagnostic.
00;25;27;07 – 00;25;51;25
Unknown
Okay. So Hannah, right before the break or as we’re going to break, I should say you shared by things that I would really love to slice apart, peel back whatever word you want to use or words you want to use, because these are really helpful elements. Like, I’m thinking back again to the
quarterly planning session that you and Eric and I had several weeks ago when you and he were like, okay, on the left side is the authority.
00;25;51;25 – 00;26;12;21
Unknown
On the right side is demand. What connects them in between is the truss bridge. And it’s like, well, okay, what are some of the things that go into the truss bridge? And it’s like it’s MTO, it’s the spark, it’s the brief and all of that. So let’s talk through each of these. And then friends, there’s going to be some resources in the show notes for today’s episode that I wasn’t even thinking about that.
00;26;12;21 – 00;26;33;00
Unknown
We’re going to link over to our YouTube channel because we’ve got some some kind of mini workshops, if you will, trainings on some of these, but Hannah would love to get your insights. So first you mentioned MTO, so frame that up and and share with our audience a little bit more context around MTO. It’s a process that you developed.
00;26;33;02 – 00;27;07;13
Unknown
Yeah. So MTO stands for map the opportunities. And this I think is one of the simplest things that an agency can do. That said, it’s not easy. So it’s simple but it’s not easy. And this is why most agencies don’t do it. So Matthew, opportunities is when you sit down and you look at your ecosystem, what events have you attended, what regular things are you doing, whether it’s a podcast or a webinar, you know, a speaking engagement that you showed up for.
00;27;07;13 – 00;27;29;25
Unknown
So really mapping kind of where you are showing up and where you’re engaging with right fit prospects. Okay. And so say the show up, right. You want it to be a good pond. You want at least 80% of the people there to be right fit for you. But you’ve got to sit down and you’ve got to figure out, you know, where you’re showing up and how you’re engaging with people.
00;27;29;29 – 00;27;53;19
Unknown
If that list is small, you may need to look into that. You may need to look at, okay, how can I show it better in more places to get, you know, more faces? That’s part of building the authority because. So that’s step one, right. Figure out kind of where you’re showing up and map your current ecosystem. And then you want to start thinking about strategic conversations that you can have with people.
00;27;53;19 – 00;28;15;01
Unknown
Now this can be obviously the first and foremost is potential clients, right. How are you showing up to potential clients? These are prospects. These are, you know, well fit right well prepared right fit prospects. So you want to list out those people. You also want to look at her clients. And this is the part that’s a little surprising.
00;28;15;01 – 00;28;34;27
Unknown
This is the part where some agency owners kind of cringe or mute me. Or maybe they have internet problems because sometimes it’s difficult when you think about, well, our current clients are already paying us, I don’t know, I don’t really think there’s opportunity there. And so they say no before they even have a conversation to really uncover. You know what?
00;28;34;28 – 00;29;03;07
Unknown
What are our current clients facing that we don’t know about? You know, what is their goal? That’s maybe they’re their big hairy audacious goal that we don’t know about. And so for that we recommend having regular milestone check ins. That’s probably a topic for another time, but you want to make sure that you’re asking your current clients strategic questions, because the last thing you want is for them to go pick another agency, which has never happened to any of us, but they pick another agency.
00;29;03;07 – 00;29;22;25
Unknown
And you say, well, we do that. Why didn’t they come to us? Okay. Again, we have to be proactive now. We can’t wait for them to come to us. We have to go to them. We have to actively seek to uncover these opportunities. Okay. So that’s number two is your current client. You also want to look at lost leads though.
00;29;22;28 – 00;29;41;16
Unknown
Who did you pitch to? Who did you have a good relationship to? Who did you really want to win? Maybe you came in second. Maybe they just decided not to move forward with an agency at all at that time. But don’t discount your lost lead that are good prospects because we know that, you know, and honestly, this is accelerated.
00;29;41;23 – 00;29;59;22
Unknown
And people used to change their agencies about every 2 to 3 years. So just because the door closed once doesn’t mean the door is closed forever. So looking at your lost leads can, can, can uncover some of those opportunities as well. And then you also want to look at past clients. So what clients did you love working with?
00;29;59;22 – 00;30;30;00
Unknown
What clients are, you know, maybe still the right fit, what clients have grown or changed, and then start to list out those people who you may want to have conversations with. And then there’s another bucket that I’m going to talk about. And again, this may be a bigger conversation for another time, but there are also typically strategic partnerships or strategic relationships where it may not be a right fit that’s going to hire you, but it may be a conduit to other right fits that can hire you.
00;30;30;00 – 00;30;57;01
Unknown
So, for example, one of our clients works with a lot of nonprofits. And so when we did the MTO with her, she identified someone who is the head of a foundation and actually has relationships with 120 nonprofits. So you can see and we actually set up a meeting for her with this person. You can see how that’s a strategic relationship that opens a door to potentially 120 of her.
00;30;57;01 – 00;31;34;01
Unknown
Right fits. So that’s another piece of the MTO that is sometimes helpful is figuring out, okay, who can open the doors or who is a conduit to some of our right fits. So friends, I wouldn’t tease out a couple of other or highlight a couple of other pieces here before we move on to the conversation. Spark. As you heard me frame up, maybe you heard me frame up in the solar cast last week that our goal in this or goal with the new podcast here is is to be help, is to be helpful or help you activate latent demand.
00;31;34;04 – 00;31;58;14
Unknown
When Hannah designed the MTO that exercise, that was the point. And it was how do we activate latent demand that is inside the ecosystem already? Now you may have just be rolling your eyes at what I just said. So I’m going to share a quick little story. And that is in one of the recent instances where Hannah in our team worked alongside one of our clients to do the MTO.
00;31;58;17 – 00;32;32;16
Unknown
They this this particular client identified a former client and they lost that relationship because of a new CEO. And we all know that tenure in the C-suite isn’t great between 2 to 4 years, where you talk about CEOs, CMO, you know, whatever the position is, somewhere around a handful of years. Okay. And the fact is, is that that particular client in the CEO who had fired the agency, that CEO also then left the organization in our client was a student to say, you know, we really enjoyed working with that agency or excuse me, that client.
00;32;32;16 – 00;32;55;13
Unknown
So they became part of the MTO, which we then helped activate that latent demand downstream because things change. So this framework that Hannah is giving you is sharing you right now. It absolutely helps you activate latent demand. It helps you surface the gold. But first you got to map the goal. You got to navigate the path. You got to create the path in order to be able to surface the gold.
00;32;55;14 – 00;33;25;05
Unknown
Right? Absolutely. And I think too, sometimes when people are hesitant to do this exercise, you know, they’re typically very linear, kind of almost tunnel vision. And I’ve talked about this before, but a lot of agencies think that their way to new revenue is new clients, and they kind of neglect everything that’s sitting around them. And it’s sort of like they’re looking at the gold on the
horizon instead of the gold that’s sprinkled right around at their at their foot, at the feet.
00;33;25;08 – 00;33;47;01
Unknown
So that’s why this is important exercise. Now, that said, again, it is simple, but it’s not easy. You need to devote some time and some brainpower to this. And I always think it’s helpful to bring in other members of your team, especially your account team. They often know things that you don’t because they’re on the front lines. They can say, oh yeah, I know that this person is having a baby and going on maternity leave in two months.
00;33;47;06 – 00;34;25;20
Unknown
Guess what? Probably some things your agency can do to fill that gap, at least for a time. And then maybe look for additional ways to serve your client or to expand the relationship. So amazing. All right, so Hannah, take us into conversation spark and the brief because they certainly go hand in hand. And then and then friends, if you look at the show notes for today’s episode, you’re going to see two different links to two different trainings in our YouTube channel, where we share how to write your conversation spark, and how to build your brief in full transparency.
00;34;25;21 – 00;34;49;23
Unknown
In a several weeks ago wrote several worksheets and AI prompts and design those for GPT or cloud. Whatever your particular you know, platform is, or excuse me, platform or preference is a preferred platform is what I’m trying to say. So those are there. We’re going to link to those in the show notes. But Hannah, walk us through conversational spark in brief that you had shared before the break.
00;34;49;25 – 00;35;19;08
Unknown
Yeah. So I mentioned a little bit about the conversation. Spark is essentially an invitation, right? We’re trying to be proactive. We can’t wait for them to come to us anymore. So a conversation
spark is a really fantastic way of reaching out with something helpful as an invitation. So whether that’s an invitation to a strategy session where you’re sharing some of the things that you’re seeing within your industry or seeing, you know, within their niche or, you know, changes that are occurring, things like that.
00;35;19;08 – 00;35;43;06
Unknown
So Conversation Spark can include some of those things. Here’s what we’re seeing. Would you like to, you know, schedule a brief. That’s one way to do it again. Another way to do it is to share something new with with you. So like for instance, we’ve got one for our sprint program. It talks about, you know, what it is, who it’s for, why we designed it, all of those things.
00;35;43;08 – 00;36;04;16
Unknown
And so we have sent conversation sparks, including an overview to that, because I think a lot of times we assume that people just know all the ways that we’re able to help, and so we kind of neglect sharing what we actually do and how we actually help, and the why behind how we architected some of our products and services.
00;36;04;16 – 00;36;26;28
Unknown
So it’s important to have documentation around that, not only for your internal team, but that can become a really great asset when you are sending it as part of the conversation spark. So that’s what it is. It’s essentially a way to reach out and be proactive and essentially inviting someone to a conversation or inviting them to get closer into the relationship with you.
00;36;26;28 – 00;36;50;03
Unknown
And then obviously, the end goal is to have a conversation and then for them to become a client if if they’re the right fit and if it’s the right time. So that’s the conversation spark and to see point, we’ve got examples and guides and things like that that’ll be in the resources. And then the brief is essentially you want to not step into this meeting and wing it.
00;36;50;05 – 00;37;15;03
Unknown
And this is something that I think we’re all guilty of at times. I think it’s sometimes normal. And I think a lot of us in agencies are kind of used to winging it. A lot of the time. This is not one of those times where you want to wing it. So when you’re putting together a brief, you want to really focus on what what you’re going to say, what the insights are, who the other person is, learn about their company.
00;37;15;03 – 00;37;38;15
Unknown
You want to show a prepared because when you can show up prepared and you can show up with, you know, some really smart things to say that are really dialed in, then obviously that increases trust and increases the chances that you’re likely going to get another conversation. So the brief is a very important step. It’s easy to skip, especially if times you’re compressed or if you’re, you know, doing something else.
00;37;38;15 – 00;37;57;08
Unknown
It’s easy to kind of put on the back burner. But it’s so incredibly important because the first time you show up through the World Series, you don’t want that to be the first time you’re swinging a bat, right? So I put in a baseball reference just for you, Stephen. Thank you very much, I caught that. Thank you. So yeah.
00;37;57;08 – 00;38;39;07
Unknown
So the brief is really important. And definitely do that that part and don’t give it. So okay, let’s, let’s pull this back in full transparency, friends. Because during our June. Yes, our June workshop or June meaning intensive, you may recall us kind of sharing some emails about that. We called it the Gold Rush. And in one of the one of the guides that Hannah shared during that workshop was what she calls the spark conversation.
00;38;39;07 – 00;38;58;19
Unknown
And and so there’s an origin story to that. And that is, you know, back in February when we taught the conversation spark at a different workshop. The good news is, is that the agencies in the room, they wrote their spark and and we even encouraged them to hit send on the sparks before they even left the session in.
00;38;58;20 – 00;39;19;01
Unknown
Yay! Some of them did. In Holy Bananas, they loop back to us and said we got the meeting. And then after the meeting, Hannah would check in and say, hey, how did that go? And what we found is that they actually didn’t deliver the brief. Right. What they did was they fell right back into the old framework of, hey, how’s about giving us a project?
00;39;19;01 – 00;39;44;04
Unknown
Which of course feels yucky when the prospective clients thinking, I’m sorry, I thought you had something. Let me go back to Hannah’s notes. Insightful, relevant and on the point. Healthful or on the nose helpful. And now I’m just stepping into a sales pitch that that that feels like a whole lot of not awesome. So then Hannah created this A Spark conversation guide in order to move through the conversation with excellence.
00;39;44;04 – 00;40;02;28
Unknown
So and I just wanted to bring that up quick before we moved off of the brief in case there is anything there, any nugget or two that you want to share about how or why you design that? Yeah, I mean, obviously I review sales calls and conversations all the time from our clients. They’re gracious enough to send me their recordings.
00;40;02;28 – 00;40;26;02
Unknown
And then I kind of analyze and we talk about ways to improve. But I was watching several of them. And it’s interesting because a lot of our clients are great conversationalists and they don’t have trouble having conversations, but where sometimes they struggle as having those strategic conversations where the other person knows exactly why they’re there, they get something helpful, relevant.
00;40;26;05 – 00;40;44;20
Unknown
And so what I was noticing is sort of who tracks one. The person would show up and it’d be a great catch up conversation and, you know, chat, chat like your hat, what’s going on in your world, blah, blah, blah. And then there’d be sort of this, this blank pause at the end where it was like, okay, well, great.
00;40;44;20 – 00;41;03;03
Unknown
It was great catching up with you. Hope to do it again next year. So we obviously don’t want that to happen. So that was that was one of the things that was happening. And then to Steven, your point, the other thing that was happening is somebody would show up and then the person would be so excited to talk about their service or their product or whatever it was, that they would immediately launch into that.
00;41;03;03 – 00;41;28;27
Unknown
And then the person is thinking, okay, well, I’m not really sure how this relates to me, and I’m not really sure why I need this because you haven’t highlighted my struggles yet, or you haven’t connected that in a way that is insightful to me or relevant to me. So that’s kind of the genesis of the The Spark Conversation Guide is essentially how you show up, how that needs to run in a strategic way.
00;41;28;27 – 00;41;55;10
Unknown
So it’s not just a nice conversation or a sales pitch. Amen. I’m adding so many things to my notes here. Of course, we’re gonna have to do an encore and then an encore, then an encore to a couple of other encores. And so, so maybe, maybe what you just shared there would fit into the category of, of number four, which is the showing up piece.
00;41;55;10 – 00;42;12;21
Unknown
But I just wanted to do a double check. Is there anything else you’d like to add to that category before we move to your only goal? You know, get another conversation. So I just want to make sure that we’re covering it with it’s there in its entirety. I mean, I would encourage our listeners to go look at the guide because spark stands for something.
00;42;12;22 – 00;42;32;25
Unknown
You know, we don’t do anything here without an acronym. So there is a specific meaning behind spark that’s easy to remember, that will help you navigate these conversations with excellence to ensure that you actually get to the fifth one, which is the Bam fam, right? Book a meeting from a meeting. So definitely take a look at those those resources and then obviously let us know if you have any questions.
00;42;32;25 – 00;43;03;24
Unknown
We’d love to hear from you. Amen to that. So before we before we get to the Bam fam piece, and then we’ll need to come in for a landing here, I should have maybe shared this either during last week’s solo cast, or maybe earlier in this conversation. One of the reasons why we know brands, how frustrating it can feel when you hear things like, wow, this team is really smart, or wow, they’re incredible teachers and boy are they helpful.
00;43;03;26 – 00;43;23;15
Unknown
And then frustrated that it doesn’t move forward is because you know what? In full transparency, we’ve heard those things. And the interlude that let me add some additional context. Years ago, we actually reached out to our audience and said, like, you know, if you were to talk about predictive, like, what are some of the things that you would say?
00;43;23;16 – 00;43;51;02
Unknown
Essentially that was kind of the question. And we heard those things. Everyone we heard, wow, they’re really great teachers. And boy, when Hannah and Eric teach, that’s awesome. And boy, Hannah’s incredibly helpful and wow, is she generous. And wow is Eric insightful. All of these things in. Yes, it is lovely to hear those things. And that gives you some semblance of quantifying, if you will, in a very loose way that you have an authority position.
00;43;51;05 – 00;44;12;07
Unknown
Yay! And we absolutely want to be generous. We absolutely. Every time someone turns around, we want to be there with a helpful answer to important question. Yes. And then in this is what helped us discover there’s a truss bridge. And there’s something on the other side of the truss bridge in is activating demand. And we needed to be more specific.
00;44;12;08 – 00;44;39;26
Unknown
That does not mean pushy is. Nobody likes that. That feels yucky. But we wanted to make sure that we could, using Hannah’s words, extended invitation. And then somebody is like, oh yes, I would very much like to accept that invitation and then be able to walk across the truss bridge to the other side, which is demand. And so that’s where we really started seeing this, and it really started making a sink like, okay.
00;44;40;03 – 00;44;55;00
Unknown
And as you know, if you if you’ve noticed for a while, you know that we eat our own dog food. Hannah just absolutely loves that reference. We eat our own dog food because we want to be able to share with you of like, okay, this is what we saw in this is what we did and this is how we fixed it.
00;44;55;01 – 00;45;18;06
Unknown
And we do that in full transparency. So, I probably should have shared that earlier, but, you know, it was painful. But but that really created a pivotal moment in our business, right? Yeah. And I think that, you know, it’s it’s easy to get to I mean, it’s not easy, but I think it’s easy to build authority because a lot of authority involves marketing.
00;45;18;06 – 00;45;39;29
Unknown
And that’s what we’re good at, even if we’re not good at it for ourselves. We know how to do it. It’s not a complete like black box of how do we do these things? But I think as we were architecting the tress bridge and then looking at demand, we really had to look at it from a different angle because we had to extend into an area that we hadn’t really classified or quantified before.
00;45;39;29 – 00;46;07;23
Unknown
It was sort of going beyond the bounds of our own expertise in our own, you know, comfortable landscape. And so we built that over many years. We obviously tested it. We took our amount of them instead of dog food, but we saw what worked and what didn’t and what was most effective, and then what was less effective and then obviously validated that with various research studies and primary search and secondary research and things like that.
00;46;07;25 – 00;46;31;00
Unknown
So I think if you’re a listener and you’re thinking, yeah, I got the authority piece down, that is awesome. And it’s no small feat, but it also may be where you’re most comfortable. And so I would encourage you to think beyond the marketing aspect of it. Build the trust bridge. And then
that’s where you really start to blend and have this beautiful marriage between marketing and sales.
00;46;31;01 – 00;46;54;05
Unknown
Hey man, well said. So friends, because this is the this is the first episode of the In Demand Agency podcast with a guest and a be my guest. There’s a little bit of a difference in format than any of the other shows that we’ve ever hosted, and so let me just kind of share a little bit of insight into how we’re going to come in for a land, and here’s what I mean by that.
00;46;54;05 – 00;47;15;07
Unknown
So so I’m going to ask Hannah to kind of go back to layers of when we’re talking about the trust bridge, there’s also, candidly, there’s a toll to be paid in order to help a prospective client across the toll bridge. It’s not or excuse me, not the toll bridge, the truss bridge. There’s a toll to be paid. There’s work to be done, and there’s grace and nuance and art and science and to be able to do that well.
00;47;15;07 – 00;47;37;14
Unknown
So I’m going to ask her to do that, or ask her to give you her insights into that process. And then after that, we’re going to say goodbye to Hannah in thank her for her time in all of those things as we normally would. And then I’m going to ask you to stay with me. I’m going to ask you to stay with me, because then then I’m going to distill down from my notes.
00;47;37;14 – 00;48;11;15
Unknown
I’ve been taking five pages of notes so far, and I’m going to distill some of the biggest takeaways from this conversation. And then those takeaways are going to form the downloadable guide. Checklists and so forth is going to go along with this episode. In fact is you’re listening to this now. It should be available on our show notes for this episode, where you can go to the show notes and you can download Hannah’s smarts in the form of a guide and checklist, so that you can always follow her advice by quick.
00;48;11;18 – 00;48;31;18
Unknown
And when I say quick and simple, that doesn’t mean they’re easy. But these are some of the five key insights and so forth from this conversation. So that’s how we will come in for a landing. I’m going to ask Hannah now to to take us through the truss bridge and the toll. And then we’ll say goodbye, and then I’ll come back with some of the five key takeaways.
00;48;31;18 – 00;48;54;12
Unknown
So, Hannah, take us through the the truss bridge and why you think there’s a toll. Yeah. So I think the elements of the truss bridge obviously we’ve talked about the NT, we’ve talked about the conversation spark. We’ve talked about the brief, we’ve talked about bam fam and actually showing up. And so those are some of the bricks or stones or flats or whatever you’re building a trust bridge with.
00;48;54;14 – 00;49;26;09
Unknown
Those are the pieces in the elements. And I think when it comes to the toll to be paid, again, this is simple, but it’s not easy. So you have to show up. You have to be willing to put in the effort. You have to be willing to dedicate the time. And this is probably the hardest part for a lot of agencies, because there are so many things that can fill our time, and we have to really dedicate and allocate the time to be able to do this and do it with excellence.
00;49;26;09 – 00;49;47;04
Unknown
So when you’re thinking about, you know, the conversation spark, obviously you can put that into AI. We’ve got prompts to help you do that, but there’s a lot of thinking that has to happen before that and a lot of strategic inputs that need to happen so that you get a good output from, you know, AI. So doing these things is not just calling it in.
00;49;47;05 – 00;50;10;11
Unknown
It’s not, you know, mapping out, okay, well, here’s the prospect or here’s the attendee list from this event. Right. You need to sit down with it. Take some time. Look at who’s actually a right fit. Make sure you have your right criteria ready to to kind of compare. And so there’s a lot of things that go into the expertise in laying the bricks.
00;50;10;11 – 00;50;37;07
Unknown
And you can’t skip that expertise. So that is I think when I think about the toll, it is honestly the effort, the strategy, the time, those those elements have to come together and they can’t be skipped or you know, you can’t lesson one of them and hope you’re going to get the same option. But let me give you let me give you a couple things here and see if this is a litmus test.
00;50;37;09 – 00;51;04;06
Unknown
You know, you and Eric Libby and I, we were just talking this morning about an hour and about that we have with an agency. They’ve absolutely built an authority position in their in their space. They they they praise God. They get inbound. They get a lot of requests inbound. But when you ask the agency what does what does the proactive how are you guys proactively activating latent demand.
00;51;04;10 – 00;51;41;29
Unknown
There is no process. Now this is the piece that is a litmus test to what he just said. The very first time that we met them, they came to a two day intensive. The the owner of the agency is about a 40 shop came to one of our intensives, the two day intensives that we did two years ago and
then two years later, excepted an invitation because Hannah prompted me to send this invitation for that owner to join Hannah and I on the so was this already podcast and said maybe we could figure out a way or actually is a little bit different than actually kind of threaten me with violence, she said.
00;51;41;29 – 00;52;07;18
Unknown
You need to figure out a way. I’m kidding everyone. You need to figure out a way to get our content closer to our prospects. And she was 100% right. And so then invited this agency owner into an interview with Hannah and I. And it went fantastically well. It was great content and super helpful for our audience. And then fast forward 6 or 7 months when there is an invitation for a brief.
00;52;07;18 – 00;52;27;15
Unknown
Would you like to have the brief? He replied and said, yeah, absolutely. And and when I met with this owner, the owner said to me, you know, there’s such trust. I know Stephen. So when I got this email, I thought, well, sure, if Stephen has something that he wants to, sure. I’d love to hear what he what he has to say.
00;52;27;16 – 00;53;00;09
Unknown
And now we’re having a conversation about them, you know, considering to step into what we call Atlas premiere. And so, you know, like when I heard you share the toll and the truss bridge, I thought of that scenario. Do you think that that fits with what you were sharing? And I think it’s maybe the way I would think about it is not necessarily a toll, but actually making deposits in the trust bank, because when we started making that or saving for that toll, it was back when they attended our intensive.
00;53;00;09 – 00;53;23;09
Unknown
And before that podcast interview, you and I did research. I mean, we showed up prepared, right? We didn’t show up and say, hey, tell us about yourself. Like we’d never heard anything about them or their agency before. We had good insights. We asked smarter questions because we had taken the time to to do some of that work. So I think each of those was a deposit in the trust bank.
00;53;23;09 – 00;53;40;19
Unknown
So when it came time to pay the trust toll, we were able to withdraw from that account and obviously that turned into an investment. I love all these metaphors. Maybe we need to turn it into like the truss bridge and some sort of baseball thing. And if we can add hot dogs into the mix, I know you’re going to be all in.
00;53;40;27 – 00;54;04;12
Unknown
Oh, yeah. If we can add hot dogs, hot dogs, wings and nachos. Man, that’s the way to my heart, everybody. I’m a I’m a simple gal. We’re gonna have to share one of these episodes about bougie baseball and how you’re a big fan. Anyway, so, Hannah, this was an absolutely wonderful conversation. Thank you very much for being so generous with your insights, your smart, your wisdom, as you always are.
00;54;04;15 – 00;54;28;06
Unknown
Everyone, please hang on here because because you and I, friends are going to go through some of the key takeaways. But before we get to that piece, Hannah, thank you very much. We greatly appreciate it. Yes, thank you, Stephen, for having me. All of our listeners, thank you for listening. And if you guys have any questions about anything we’ve talked about, please feel free to email me.
00;54;28;07 – 00;54;56;05
Unknown
Hannah at predictive ROI. We love to hear feedback on the podcast. We love to hear your questions and sometimes they become the topics for other podcasts. So please, please reach out if you feel so inclined. And thank you all for your time and thank you for listening. Okay friends, thanks for sticking with me here. We’re doing something new as part of the In Demand Agency podcast, so we just spent some time with Hannah.
00;54;56;07 – 00;55;21;05
Unknown
And so now we’re going to debrief here because I want to make sure that the golden nuggets, the key takeaways those things are captured. And what I share with you here. The five points that I share with you here. There’s also going to be a downloadable guide resource checklist tool that is going to be based on the expertise and the insights that Hannah shared throughout this episode, including these five that you can download.
00;55;21;05 – 00;55;41;25
Unknown
It’s available now. So if you’re listening to this episode, it’s available. If you go to the show notes of today’s episode, you’re going to be able to download that for free and be able to have it. And so that is our goal to make each of our episodes that much more actionable and so forth. So here are five things that I wanted to highlight.
00;55;41;26 – 00;56;04;27
Unknown
These of course, not all of the golden nuggets, but these five really stood out to me. So Golden nugget number one or take away number one, Hannah said. She goes, you know, we used to say, you know, knowledge is power. But today because of AI, because of other tools, knowledge now has become cheap. And so we have to take things deeper.
00;56;04;27 – 00;56;37;07
Unknown
There has to be depth. So that’s the first piece. It’s not about being, you know, on all of the channels with surface type content. You need to go deeper because depth with your prospects is what really matters. It takes yes, it takes your story position deeper and then is going to help your prospective clients be even more open to accepting, and maybe even more excited about accepting your invitation to meet them at your truss bridge.
00;56;37;08 – 00;57;02;25
Unknown
Okay, so that’s the first thing. Second is, you heard Hannah talk about being defensible in how she learned that lesson back at university and how important it was that any sort of recommendation couldn’t be. Well, my guess is or my assumption is or my thing is it was if you’re going to put something forward together or put something forward, excuse me, a recommendation.
00;57;02;25 – 00;57;25;15
Unknown
It needs to be defensible. There needs to be a level of rigor so that it stands the test of time, and so that it stands up to scrutiny. So that second piece is defensible. So if we’re putting forward a recommendation there’s research tied to it. You heard me in last week’s episode, the solo cast episode one I shared a story.
00;57;25;15 – 00;57;53;27
Unknown
And then I also like a story from the field. And then I shared with you three insights from three recent research sources that we had been studying that tied back to that story from the field. The bar is being raised friends and so be defensible. Number three is you heard Hannah say it’s not enough to be prolific. You need to be profound.
00;57;54;02 – 00;58;16;26
Unknown
And then she gave you three ingredients, just three quick ingredients in the sort of profound recipe, if you will, or recipe for being profound. And the first one was insightful. Second one is you’ve got to be relevant in the third is you have to be on the nose helpful. And that’s a direct quote from Hannah, right? You got to be insightful relevant in on the nose.
00;58;16;27 – 00;58;43;00
Unknown
Helpful. Okay. So then number four is the invitation. When you’re extending an invitation, you need to have a process of extending invitations. It’s one thing on the left side. Like if we’re looking at the ecosystem again the authority demand ecosystem on the left side is authority. On the right side is demand and truss bridge. The truss bridge is what connects the left side to the right side.
00;58;43;00 – 00;59;14;25
Unknown
And I broke that down in the solo cast in in, in and helped you sketch that out. If you haven’t listened to the episode one in the solar cast, please do, because part of the truss bridge is that you’re extending invitations to your audience. A specific invitation for them to say yes to that does not mean a sales pitch, a specific invitation that they’re saying yes to, because using Hannah’s words, you can’t wait for them to come to you anymore.
00;59;14;27 – 00;59;43;05
Unknown
You can’t wait for them to come to you anymore. There’s too much clutter. There’s too much in the market. You can’t wait for them to come to you anymore. You need to make an invitation and it needs to be a permission based invitation. Okay, then. Number five is we brought this conversation home with there is a toll to be paid in order to help your prospects accept your invitation, whether that’s work or effort or being prolific.
00;59;43;05 – 01;00;02;22
Unknown
In order for them to be excited about taking your hand and walking across the bridge with you, we have to recognize friends. There is a toll to be paid. Okay, so those are the five highlights. The five key takeaways that I wanted to share with you. And yes, your list may be different than mine and please share it with me.
01;00;02;25 – 01;00;26;18
Unknown
Would love to know what. Idea is and what takeaways you took out of the episode. Please email this to me because I would love to compare lists. So my email address and I gave you hers. My email address is Steven at predictive ROI. So Steven is step H at predictive ROI. And before we go I just want to say thank you.
01;00;26;20 – 01;00;46;11
Unknown
We all have the same 86,400 seconds in a day. And I am grateful that you decided to spend some of your valuable time with Hannah and me today. That means very, very much. Or that means a great deal to us. And thank you for doing that. We look forward to being back with you next week when Erik Jensen and I.
01;00;46;14 – 01;00;59;18
Unknown
So Erik is my other business partner here. Predictive. When we break down the truss bridge and some of the trust indicators into even more granular details. So until then, onward with gusto.