Managing Anxiety and Stress

Episode 882: Managing Anxiety and Stress, with Angela Ficken

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Managing anxiety and stress is important for business owners. Angela Ficken will show us the best ways to start managing anxiety and stress.

It’s time to shift our focus on managing anxiety and stress because of how it can create an impact on both a personal and professional level. Our guest for today’s episode is Angela Ficken, who is a psychotherapist in Boston, MA. She graduated with a B.A in psychology from Northeastern University and received her Masters in Social Work from Boston College. She began her career as a residence counselor at the OCD Institute at McLean hospital before attending graduate school.

After receiving her MSW, she worked as a senior clinical social worker at McLean Hospital and was a primary therapist for college students at Harvard University before moving to her full-time private practice. She is certified in DBT and CBT and is trained in exposure and response prevention (ERP). Her primary interests are working with young adults who have OCD, eating disorders, and anxiety-related concerns.

What you’ll learn in this episode about managing anxiety and stress:

What Angela has been working on since her previous appearance on Onward Nation in episode 537
Why Angela has been focusing on her writing, which has been published through her blog as well as Huffington Post, Parenting.com and other media outlets
Why managing anxiety and stress is becoming increasingly important today, especially for business owners and entrepreneurs
Why stress and anxiety aren’t the same thing but very often overlap and tend to go hand-in-hand
Why Angela developed her stress-management course as a supplement to her business and her writings
What early success and feedback Angela’s clients have received from her stress-management course
Why our negative thoughts are often based on incorrect assumptions, and why we often overreact to kernels of truth
What suggestions and tips Angela has for business owners who are trying to find balance and manage their stressors
Why small changes to your daily self-care routine can have a profound impact on managing anxiety and stress levels
Why breaking a big, stressful opportunity into small fragments allows you to better deal with anxiety

Resources:

Additional Resources:

Sell With Authority by Drew McLellan and Stephen Woessner: https://amzn.to/39y7x13
Predictive ROI Free Resource Library: https://predictiveroi.com/resources/
Stephen Woessner’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/stephenwoessner/
Check out a similar podcast on managing anxiety and stress from our guest, J.D. Graffam

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Full Episode Transcript

Get ready to find your recipe for success from America’s top business owners here at Onward Nation with your host, Stephen Woessner.

Good morning Onward Nation, I’m Stephen Woessner, and our special encore guest today is Angela Ficken. Angela is a psychotherapist in Boston. She began her career as a senior clinical social worker at McLean hospital, and was a therapist for college students attending Harvard University before moving into her private practice. Angela’s primary interests are working with young adults who have OCD, eating disorders, and anxiety related concerns.

Now, you may remember Angela and the wisdom and insights that she shared during episode 537 of Onward Nation. And if you haven’t listened to, studied and applied all she shared during our first interview, I highly encourage you to add episode 537 to your list of vital priorities. So without further ado, welcome back to Onward Nation, Angela.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Angela’s Introduction

Thank you so much, Stephen, for that awesome introduction.

Well, thank you so much for saying yes. And I’m so glad that our mutual friend Kristen suggested we get back together for an encore in Onward Nation in our pre-interview chat in the green room. You know, I was asking Angela about some of the new things, some of the things that have been going on in her business and in life and her practice and so forth, and she brought me up to speed with some amazing things, because there’s been a couple of years, Angela, since we’ve had a chance to do this.

So, so actually take us behind the curtain and walk us through some of those new things, some of the things that helped you excited about the road ahead, whether that’s your course or the blog and some of the additional writings that you’ve been doing. So take us through that and then we’ll dive in with the questions. Sure.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Angela’s Path and Journey

Yeah. You know, a lot has happened in two years when you’re telling me it’s been that long, it hadn’t felt like that long. So time just blurs together. But there’s been several things that I’ve worked on, primarily the writing front of my practice and still maintaining a full time in office private practice, and also have been really focusing on my writing.

So I’ve created a blog, which I have on my website. And on top of that, I’ve written for Huffington Post, thrive. I have articles on your tango and also today parenting.com. So I just have kind of exploded on the writing front. And through that, a lot of people around the country have been reading what I’m writing about and sharing about anxiety and stress management.

And through that I was really asking for more, which is great. Which is why I decided to write this online, stress management course, which has both the written form and audio. So whichever medium you prefer or both, you can learn about how to manage stress more effectively. Well, and forgive my late layperson question here about anxiety stress management.

Because there’s so much in both of those categories, both those topics that I do not know. So so again, forgive me if I frame this question that really exposes my ignorance. But you know, I’m seeing this as a topic becoming more and more prevalent. And so why do you think that is?

And because I know that our business owners who are listening to you right now, business owners around the world are in some of them, maybe not all of them, but some of them are dealing with anxiety, stress management. Why? Why is that? I mean, it seems to me it’s becoming more and more pervasive. Maybe I’m wrong, but why?

Managing Anxiety and Stress: The Amount of Stress A Person Experiences

Why is that becoming, maybe more top of mind, if you will. Sure. Yeah, it’s a great question. I think especially for business owners. And I say this a lot, you know, there’s no manual for what we do for work. You know, we kind of are starting something from scratch. So it’s not like you get hired for a job and then you get trained by somebody to go do that job.

There’s no manual. So a lot of it comes with, okay, how do I get this going? And then how do I keep it up? And that just breeds stress. And a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners thrive in a certain amount of stress. But then you add on family stress, relationship stuff. If you have kids stress that goes along with that and then just managing things that, you know, the landmines you can’t predict in life, it just adds on to something that is already inherently stressful.

So that’s why I think more people are feeling it these days, in particular the people that are kind of running their own show. Well, okay, so then thank you for that. So help me better understand the terminology. So I’m using the right language. So when I think of and again here I’m sort of exposing my lack of knowledge in this area.

But when I think of anxiety, when I think of stress management I kind of think of those as the same thing. But what I’m learning from you is that they’re not. They may intersect, but they’re different topics. Am I tracking with you correctly? So they can actually blur.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Stress Is a Form of Anxiety

You know, stress is a form of anxiety, right? Where stress in our life, it starts to get in our way of functioning. That’s when, you know, anxiety can come into play. So, for example, someone who is having difficulty sleeping because they are really worried and stressed about an upcoming presentation that they have to do the next day.

That they’re kind of feeling anxious about or stress. So it’s kind of a two for one where sometimes people can’t shut off their brain. They can’t get to sleep because they’re ruminating and feeling anxious about what if I don’t say the right thing? What if I forget this? What if I stutter? What if I go blank?

What if I fail all of those? Or kind of worried, anxious thoughts? That can cause us to feel stressed, and then make it difficult to kind of get through the day. So I kind of, at least in this, the stress management course really kind of incorporates both where sometimes we feel anxious. And stress and it can kind of be one in the same.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Angela’s Thought Leadership

Okay. So let’s go into your course for just a second. Or not just a second. Let’s go into your course. But just a second before we do that. That’s what I meant to say. I want to illustrate this as what I think is really brilliant. And what you’ve done in your business and I want to illustrate that for Onward Nation business owners and how you’re elevating your practice with your thought leadership and getting more intentional about your thought leadership.

So you mentioned the blog. You mentioned writing for, you know, Huffington Post, you mentioned thriving and adding that content and written form onto your website that helps build your practice. That’s your thought leadership. And then taking that thought leadership even deeper in the form of curriculum within a course.

And so I think that’s really, really smart how you’re building out your business, building out the content side of your business, but then also turning that into really helpful tools, whether that’s blog posts or articles or if somebody wants to go deeper, with your thought leadership in an instructor form, then they have the course.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: The Strategy Behind Building a Course

I think that’s really, really smart. So take us inside the strategy side of that first before we dip into the course. From a content perspective, take us into the strategy side as to why you felt like building a course is not easy. It takes a lot of, you know, like blood, sweat, tears to do that. So why did you feel that was important for your business?

Yeah. So I started with getting feedback from people. Honestly, that’s where it originated from, that people were emailing me saying that they appreciated the articles I was writing because on most of my articles, I do offer tips and strategies to manage different types of things that people face. And they wanted more.

So I thought, okay, how do I get creative here? I very much enjoy my practice. I enjoy writing, what is the next step for me? And that’s when I thought, why don’t I write a course? And it really did. I mean, talk about blood, sweat and tears like it really? It was a dissertation for me. In terms of everything that I know in my training and what I teach in sessions it has gone into this course.

And I typically talk to people about one of my favorite strategies is breaking things into smaller pieces. So when we look at huge chunks of things that we have to do, we tend to feel overwhelmed. And then kind of that’s when things run amuck for us. And I always say, you know, break things into slivers, not chunks, and break it down into smaller pieces gets you to the bigger goal, and helps it feel more manageable.

So that’s why I decided to write the course and titled it Breaking Every Day into slivers. Not chunks of practical skills to deal with everyday stressors. So that’s kind of how I came up with it, and kind of the behind the scenes of how it came together. Oh, I bet it sounds patronizing here. I don’t mean to do, but I love the title of this course, and it’s so spot on as far as the chunks and the slivers.

I was literally just mapping that out on one of the whiteboards in my office, the other day about biz dev and thinking about the entire year and then breaking that down into a smaller sliver between now and the end of June. And then that becomes a much more manageable number as far as activity and so forth.

Whereas the entire biz dev plan, I mean, I need to know what it is, but then it also comes with some pieces of stress to like, oh, geez, you know, there’s a lot of complexity with that. And so a smaller sliver makes it more manageable that that’s okay.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: The Modules in The Course

So I love that. So walk us through, whether the course is broken into modules and why you decided to structure the way that you did.

So, yeah, I actually slivered this course out myself just so I could get it done. Because it really did feel like a huge undertaking when you look at it as a whole and how to design it. So it came out with like several edits and drafts of what are the most important bits that I want to talk about.

So there are actually seven modules to this course. And it’s essentially, soup to nuts, like everything that I could possibly think of that somebody might have. So it’s everyday stressors, just like life stressors. Driving to work. How do you manage that? Thinking about getting to places on time if you feel like you’re always behind.

So kind of everyday stressors to managing sleep, managing work and work, stress and work relationships, home and social life. So how to manage home stress and social anxiety is there too. A lot of times I hear from business owners or people in the networking world that they have to do networking and they don’t enjoy it and how to do it and get outside your comfort zone.

So I offer some strategies on how to feel more comfortable in social situations. And then I also talk about negative thoughts. So we all have, I don’t know, 7 billion people in the world, but a lot of us struggle with or have some negative thoughts, especially kind of coming from the business world of like, can I do this?

Am I going to be good enough? What if I fail? What if this doesn’t work out? So one module is okay. How to manage and shift out of negative thinking. And then last is kind of how to overcome procrastination. So seeing a big ticket item and being like I don’t want to do that, I’ll just do it later.

And then all of a sudden, you know, you’re, you know, stuff is hitting the fan. And then the last bit is really 20 easy tips that you can do right now that can help manage stress. So all of those things kind of are in the course.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Initial Feedback About the Course

Okay. So underneath and the reason why I asked Angela to map that out isn’t to sell you the course, although I think that there’s a lot of value there.

It isn’t to sell you the course. I wanted her to cover that soup to nuts, because this is a great illustration of how she has taken her thought leadership and put it in the seven module seven comprehensive modules. And now if somebody goes through that course, it is. It’s like an incontrovertible fact that Angela knows exactly what it is that she’s talking about.

And she’s been helpful through the seven modules. So then after the modules, if they decide that, gosh, I like to have maybe a one on one type of practice working relationship with Angela. Angela is now that she becomes a category one, she is the logical next step to work with them one on one in their practice. Right? Right Angela? Yes, yes.

Okay. So what are some of the initial feedback you’re receiving from participants? I know the course is early on and being released and so forth, but what’s some of the early feedback you’re receiving? So for people that have gone through the course, what I’ve heard is that they were amazed that there were actually coping skills for some of this stuff, that they’re like, oh, I can actually manage my negative thoughts.

I actually heard from somebody that they didn’t even realize how they were talking to themselves, that they were like, oh, I didn’t know how negative I was until I press pause and took a step back and was like, wow, I’m actually beating myself up for something that is just not even a problem. So just being able to look at things through a different perspective with feedback that I’ve heard from people, and then just different strategies in terms of managing sleep, which is so important.

And some people were like, I never thought that. I thought it was just a thing like this. I just have a sleep problem, and this is something that I just have to deal with. I never thought that there were different strategies I could use to try to sleep better. Thinking about small things like sleep hygiene. It’s like, what’s that?

Well, sleep hygiene is actually trying to take care of yourself before bed time, kind of shutting down all the technology, getting a routine together so you can start to unwind, calm your brain down and get to sleep. So these are strategies that people are like, I never heard of that. And that’s some of the feedback that I was getting, which is great that I’m able to provide people with skills that they wouldn’t have thought of on their own, and that they were finding helpful.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Trying To Tolerate How We Talk to Ourselves

Wow. I’ve never heard of that term either. Sleep hygiene is awesome. Yeah. It’s a wonderful thing to have. And sometimes it can be a hard thing to keep. But it’s a good thing to be mindful of. Well, this is fascinating too, because the first thing that you just mentioned there was, was kind of like this, that kind of it was the self-talk piece.

Yes. And this is what I find super, super interesting as it relates to, to business owners with that piece. Like we talk, I mean, we’re brutal to ourselves in the self-talk, right? Like if we actually vocalized how we’re talking to ourselves, like if we talk to our team that way we’d have nobody on our team, right?

No. Nobody would stand for what we like if we talked to somebody else. The way that we talk to ourselves. Why in the mirror? Right? Right. Why in the world do we do that? And maybe that’s kind of an odd way to frame a question, but why do we actually tolerate how we talk to one or how we talk to ourselves.

Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know, like where that comes from. It’s and I think a lot of people aren’t aware of how mean they are to themselves. And it’s not until I see somebody in my office, I’m like, can you just verbalize what you just said? Like, write it down because sometimes even when we say it, it doesn’t really connect until we write it down and we look at it, it’s like, wow, I’m actually really mean.

And also not being realistic with what is actually happening. And I tell people all the time, like, you wouldn’t even tell a stranger that, so why are you telling yourself that? And you know why we do it? I don’t know, I, we tend to hear like, oh, we are our own worst critics. I think that’s true.

Maybe it’s sometimes people find it can be helpful and motivating. Oh, if I, you know, just tell myself to, you know, get on with it. It will be better. And just like. No, actually, this tends to backfire. But I think a lot of times people don’t realize how mean they are to themselves because we’re in our heads all the time.

And I forget who did the study? I think it might have been Columbia University, but there is some research out there that we have about 70,000 thoughts a day. Okay. And we can’t remember all of those thoughts.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Our Negative Thoughts Are Based on Assumptions

So we tend to cherry pick the thoughts that kind of match how we feel. But I think a lot of the time we just aren’t aware of all of those negative thoughts that we have because we’re just so in our heads all the time.

That is just hard to pick. So, you know, that’s why I think the negative thought module piece can be one of the most helpful, just because it really helps people learn how to take a different perspective, that’s more realistic. This is so great because sometimes it may be, maybe it’s the majority of the time. I don’t know.

I would love to get your perspective here. Sometimes the self-talk like it’s not true. It’s a crazy assumption. It’s like, you know, we’re making leaps. This person said that. So therefore that must mean that I’m this. And sometimes the way that we talk to ourselves is, not only is it mean, but it’s not accurate.

If you found that to be true, too. Oh, absolutely. I mean, a lot of our negative thoughts are based on assumptions. And sometimes there’s a kernel of truth somewhere in our past. So, you know, and so, for example, somebody might say, you know, I feel socially anxious going into rooms because when there’s a lot of people, because when I go in, everybody, stops and looks and I feel like they’re talking about me and just like, okay, well, the evidence is that when you do go into a room, people actually do stop and look to see who’s coming into the room.

But that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re talking about you. But what will happen is we kind of see data coming in. We interpret something that is right. People are stopping to look at who is coming into the room. And if I’m already feeling primed, like I don’t want to do this or I’m feeling anxious or what I find awkward, I’m going to think, oh, they’re stopping to look at me because I’m doing something wrong, or because I’m awkward and see, like, I can’t go into any rooms with people because I’m socially anxious, so forget it.

I just won’t do it at all. And it’s just like you take one little piece of something that looks a certain way and kind of blows up into this huge assumption that probably isn’t true at all. Wow. Okay, okay. And then that story, if it’s appropriate for me to call it that story or that script or that whatever gets repeated in somebody’s mind over and over again to the point where that person thinks that that’s actually reality.

When it wasn’t, it was just kind of a story or data points or assumptions out of control. And now that becomes a limiting thing within their business, within their personal life. Right? Right. Yes. Yeah. And, what I say is, you know, all a belief is a thought that you think over and over and over again.

And it’s just trying to think about how do you start rewiring your brain to think more realistic now when anxiety and stress or whatever challenging emotion comes in, it’s not always going to paint an accurate picture of what is. And it’s just trying to use different skills and strategies to try to manage. Okay, here’s something challenging that’s happening now.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Skills Needed to Manage Everyday Stressors

How do I make a decision that doesn’t necessarily isn’t necessarily being dictated by that emotion that I’m feeling? Right. So I can feel anxious going into a social situation and I can still go into it, and manage my anxiety or stress, and have conversations with people and meet new people. So there are ways around negative thinking.

It just takes a little bit of rewiring. So let’s take the kind of the subtitles here, of course. When you say practical skills to deal with everyday stressors. Well, let me maybe you can kind of peel out a nugget or two or a couple of highlights that would fit into the category of practical skills. So is there a practical skill or two that you could share with Onward Nation business owners that might help them manage the everyday stressors?

Yeah. I mean, it’s a wide range, in terms of different types of stress. Sometimes it’s hard to manage a schedule, like, how do you do it all when you have lots of things that you have to balance right. So one thing I do talk about is look at your schedule and think about what your priorities are each day, because each day can bring different priorities and how you want to balance each day.

And then try to again and sliver it out so it feels more manageable. So if you’re balancing family and work and social time and alone time, like, those are all important things, how do you want to schedule it out so it starts to feel more manageable rather than feeling like you’re running around with your head cut off because you have to manage all these things and never getting anything done.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Finding Time for Self-Care

So one strategy I talked to people about is how is your schedule and is there anything that we can tweak or add which will make it feel more manageable and a bit more calm? So that’s one. The other is when people get stressed. Honestly, the first thing to go is self-care. We think that we have to trim the fat in our time in order to donate more time to fill in the blank like work.

And I often say, you know, when we trim the wrong type of fat, like our self-care, we actually just become more stressed. And it just blows up in our face so people and it can feel counterproductive, but you actually want to add stuff in. Or if you feel like you do need to take stuff out, it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

So if you’re, for example, a lot of people find exercise helpful. If you go to the gym four days a week and you realize, you know, oh, I can’t do it. It’s such a stressful quarter, I’m not going to the gym at all. It’s like, well, maybe you go once a week or twice a week and then just assess from there.

Or maybe you just assess week to week how much time you want to donate and give to that. If it’s not going to the gym, is it going for a walk? Like, doing a couple of exercises in your office, like really donating time to yourself, I think is so helpful. And just managing basic stress. And again, that is the first thing to go when people get busy and it’s the wrong thing.

But it’s like a knee jerk reaction. And it just needs constant tending to. So I think that is definitely a key thing that I recommend. So, I’m not looking for an overall kind of comprehensive bucket to put all this in. What I’m wondering is, is your perspective around the topic of fear, like how from, based on your expertise, how much of whether it’s stress management, whether it’s anxiety, whether it’s, you know, being able to manage self-care, whatever it might be, how much of that kind of dips into into fear and being able to push past the fear and just take action on something?

Managing Anxiety and Stress: If It Makes You Anxious, Just Do It Anyway

Well, so I think we, you know, fear definitely plays a part. It can be a challenging emotion to experience, right? The fear of what might be coming next, the fear of, you know, it’s all uncertain, right? What is the next step? How is it going to get played out? Am I making the right moves?

Am I really good at this? Should I be doing this? And you know, that’s all kind of fear based. And one kind of thing that I have said to myself for a couple of years now is, you know, if it makes me anxious, I’m just going to do it anyway. And I’ve done that both personally and professionally, and I’ve had a tremendous amount of opportunity because of that.

And I’ve had lovely experiences because of that. And I really try to stick with it. So if I get offered something or I think about wanting to do something and I get anxious about it, that is my red flag. Or it’s like, well, now I have to do it, because, you know, I want to be an anxiety expert and not and then like, not practice what I preach.

But then also it’s like, okay, this is an opportunity here. Even if I flub, even if it doesn’t go according to my master plan. I did it and I’ll learn from it. Because the other thing that I believe in is we learn by doing. And if I don’t do it, I can’t learn.

So I think that combo has certainly helped me and I try to have that kind of message and tone in my practice and in my writing. I love that because.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Pushing Through That Fear and Getting To Where You Are Right Now

So let me give that back to you. Make sure I’m tracking with you. You’re almost using at least I’m kind of intuiting here between the lines, but it seemed to me that you’re almost using the anxiety, or if you feel any anxiety or any fear around something, that’s almost a litmus test of whether you should or shouldn’t maybe go down that path and it’s like, well, okay, if I’m feeling that maybe there’s something here that maybe this is a really good opportunity, I might be uncomfortable, but I’m going to pursue it anyway.

But I’m going to pursue it in such a way that I break it down into slivers, because then it feels maybe there’s less fear, less anxiety. Then around that opportunity. I’m tracking with you. Yes. Totally. Yes. Yeah. So it’s taking something that feels like a really big task.

And it seems it’s exciting and nerve wracking all in one. And it’s just like, okay, well, from step one to the last step, there are all these other many steps in between. So why don’t I just start at the beginning and then just slowly inch my way towards the big kahuna so it doesn’t go like this, like, oh.

Oh, good. Oh, God. You know, it’s like, okay, you know, I’ve got there, I’ve got my outline, I’ve got all these steps. I forgot all the work. I’ve worked on my negative thoughts and doubts. I’ve, you know, managed moving through this, using this, the skills that I find helpful. And here I am, ready to go.

So I think, yeah, I think all of it has been kind of my experience on how I’ve gotten to where I am now. And then again, like I said, kind of bringing it to my practice and helping people who are kind of coming in for similar experiences. This has been a great conversation for a couple of really big reasons.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: A Recap on The Lessons

First, from a thought leadership perspective, you demonstrated how a thought leader can get really clear about their particular topics and go deep in creating content around those. You’ve done it on your blog, you’ve done it, you know, with Huffington Post and Thrive and so forth. So really going deep with your writing. And then that morphed into a course where you can then be helpful to your audience.

In obviously managing whether that’s anxiety, stress management, so forth, and taking your thought leadership and transforming that into different sort of modalities, if you will, of the content. So that, in my opinion, is a big takeaway for organization business owners. Second, you allowed us to go down the path of a couple of topics and shared some practical skills for business owners to be able to manage some of the fear they might be feeling or anxiety around particular topics, and broke that down in a tactical way in order to be helpful there.

So that was awesome. Angela. So I oh my gosh, it was just awesome. So I know we covered a lot and I know that we’re getting kind of compressed for time. And I want to be respectful of your schedule. So before we go, any final advice that you want to share? Anything you think we might have missed? And then please do tell us the best way to connect with you.

Managing Anxiety and Stress: Final Advice and How to Connect with Angela

I don’t think we’ve missed anything. I think I’ve, we’ve we certainly have covered quite a bit, and I think I’ve given the best points, at least the ones that helped me on a day to day basis. So kind of passing that along and hopefully that will help people out there.

In particular, you know, managing anxiety and just going for it anyway, like, just do it and, have the experience and try to ride that wave. You will hit the shore at some point and hopefully with two feet. And then in terms of getting a hold of me, the best way is through my website, which is progresswellness.com.

And there is my email and you can Onward Nation. Members can certainly email me through Angela at Progress wellness.com. Okay. Onward Nation, no matter how many notes you took or how often you go back and re-listen to Angela’s words of wisdom, which I sure hope that you do. The key is you need to take these practical skills that she gave you.

Take them, apply them into your business, into your life, and accelerate your results. And Angela, we all have the same 86,400 seconds in a day. And I am grateful, my friend, that you said yes for a second time, to come back to Onward Nation to help us move our businesses onward to that next level. Thank you so much, Angela. Oh, thank you Stephen. This has been super fun.

This episode is complete. So head over to OnwardNation.com for show notes and more food to fuel your ambition. Continue to find your recipe for success here at Onward Nation.

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