Don Yaeger
13-Time New York Times Bestselling Author Don Yaeger Demonstrates How to Tell Business Stories That Move People to Act
Episode 8
Most agencies have stories.
The problem is not the absence of stories. The problem is that agencies often tell them from the agency’s point of view…then hope the prospect reaches the intended conclusion.
Don Yaeger raises the standard. A business story is not finished when the storyteller reaches the last sentence. It has done its job when the listener can see themselves inside the experience, understand what changed, and recognize a clear path forward.
Don is a thirteen-time New York Times bestselling author, Hall of Fame keynote speaker, executive coach, longtime Associate Editor of Sports Illustrated, and host of the Corporate Competitor Podcast. His official website reports more than seven million books sold worldwide, and Don recently shared that his books have spent a combined 115 weeks on The New York Times bestseller list.
Quick answer: An agency tells a business story that moves a right-fit prospect to act by starting with the listener…not the agency. Research what matters to that person, establish an authentic point of connection, and decide what the listener should do, think, or feel before constructing the story. Then reverse the I-to-you ratio so the prospect can participate in the experience instead of merely hearing the agency describe itself. The strongest story makes the challenge recognizable, the changed outcome believable, and the next step clear.
In this conversation, Stephen Woessner and Hannah Roth ask Don to translate the principles in his new book, The Business of Storytelling, into practical lessons agency owners can apply in content, biz dev conversations, case studies, presentations, and client relationships. The book was published by Forbes Books on September 15, 2026.
How can an agency tell business stories that move right-fit prospects to act?
1. Know the listener before choosing the story
Don identifies the most common storytelling failure point plainly: the storyteller has not taken time to understand the listener.
He uses the Three Concentric Circles for Knowing Your Audience to explain the preparation. The outside circle is Research. Learn what the listener cares about, what they have experienced, and what may matter in the conversation. The second circle is Connection. Find an authentic point where the listener’s story and your story intersect. The center is Breakthrough. Research and connection earn the right to ask a better question…and to be heard differently.
For an agency, that means the same case story should not be delivered the same way to every prospect. The client result may remain unchanged, but the part of the story you emphasize should reflect the buyer’s situation, priorities, and unanswered questions.
You cannot make a story relevant to the listener if you have not taken time to understand the listener.
2. Turn the listener into a participant
Don calls this reversing the I-to-you ratio.
A story filled with “I,” “me,” and “my” may document the agency’s work accurately. But it can still leave the prospect standing outside the experience, watching the agency describe how impressive it is.
The assignment is not to remove the agency from its own story. It is to help the listener locate their place inside it. Don demonstrates the difference by contrasting “there I was” with “you can only imagine.” The event has not changed. The perspective has.
This matters in agency content because a prospect is rarely looking for another agency biography. The prospect is trying to answer a more personal question: Can these people understand our situation…and help us create the outcome we need?
When the listener can see themselves inside the story, the story becomes an experience they help create.
3. Decide what movement the story should create
Before Don tells a business story, he asks three questions:
- What do I want the listener to do?
- What do I want the listener to think?
- What do I want the listener to feel?
The “do” does not always need to be an immediate sales action. The right movement may be that the prospect thinks differently about the problem, feels understood, becomes curious about the agency’s expertise, or chooses to continue the conversation.
In our opinion…that is the bridge from storytelling to Demand. Authority may earn the prospect’s attention. A purposeful story can make the agency’s expertise and proof easier to recognize, reduce uncertainty, and help the prospect see an appropriate next step.
Don’s standard is direct: a business story should contain a challenge, show how solving that challenge changed the outcome, and provide a clear path forward for the listener.
A business story is not told merely to entertain. It is constructed to move the listener from where they are to where they need to be.
How research earned Don the right to ask Michael Jordan a deeper question
During the episode, Don shares a personal experience from an interview conducted around Michael Jordan’s fiftieth birthday.
Don had interviewed Jordan before, but he did not treat the opportunity as another routine conversation. He researched Jordan’s relationship with his father, then shared a point of connection from his own life. Only after doing that work did Don ask whether his father had ever said something that left a scar Jordan still remembered.
Don reports that Jordan answered with a childhood story he had not shared previously…a memory that helped Don understand Jordan’s drive with greater depth.
The agency lesson is not that every conversation should become intensely personal. It is that familiarity is not permission to stop being curious. Whether the person is a new prospect or a longtime client, thoughtful research and authentic connection can create a different conversation.
What you will learn in this episode
- Why a business story must create movement instead of merely holding attention
- How Research, Connection, and Breakthrough help a storyteller understand the listener
- Why familiarity with a client does not eliminate the need for curiosity and preparation
- How the I-to-you ratio changes a story from self-description into listener participation
- How to decide what the listener should do, think, and feel before constructing the story
- Why the correct next step may be deeper thought, greater trust, or continued conversation rather than an immediate sale
- How purposeful storytelling helps make expertise, proof, and a path forward easier to recognize
Put one agency story through Don’s movement test
- Name the listener. Choose one right-fit prospect or client audience. Write down what matters to them now and what they need to understand.
- Define the movement. Decide what you want that listener to do, think, and feel when the story ends.
- Reverse the ratio. Review every use of “I,” “me,” “we,” and “our.” Revise the story so the listener can see their challenge, their desired outcome, and their next step inside it.
Then ask Hannah’s closing question from the episode:
If this story were removed, would the business outcome suffer?
If the answer is no…the story may be interesting, but it is not yet doing meaningful business work.
Continue the Authority-to-Demand conversation
In Libby Stinson’s episode on how purposeful questions build trust and Demand, Libby shows how to prepare thoughtful questions, listen for clues, and avoid wasting a prospect’s answer.
In Scott McKain’s conversation on how agencies become unmistakably valuable, Scott explains how specific stories make a standard visible, teachable, and repeatable.
In Stephen Woessner’s solocast on what turns trust into Demand, Stephen connects visible expertise, meaningful curiosity, credible proof, and barrier removal to the moment a trusting prospect acts.
Explore the complete In-Demand Agency Podcast archive.
Research notes and sources
1. Don Yaeger’s current work and credentials
Don Yaeger’s official website identifies him as the author of 13 New York Times bestselling books with more than seven million copies sold worldwide. Simon & Schuster’s official author profile identifies him as a Hall of Fame keynote speaker, executive coach, Publisher at Advantage Media, longtime Associate Editor of Sports Illustrated, National Geographic Storyteller in Residence, and host of the Corporate Competitor Podcast.
2. Don Yaeger’s 115 weeks on the bestseller list
In an August 2026 first-party LinkedIn post, Don states that his books have spent 115 weeks on The New York Times bestseller list. This figure is attributed to Don’s account rather than represented as an independent audit of the newspaper’s archive.
3. The Business of Storytelling
Don Yaeger, The Business of Storytelling: Inspire Action, Build Trust, and Drive Results Through Story, Forbes Books, September 15, 2026. The publisher describes the book as a practical, research-backed guide that teaches ten storytelling elements, explains why stories influence decisions, and helps leaders turn everyday experiences into stories that build trust and move people to act.
4. Storytelling as a learnable business discipline
Don’s official storytelling page says effective storytelling includes understanding the audience, having a clear purpose, using a relatable protagonist, and involving the audience in the narrative journey. It also describes storytelling as a learnable skill rather than an innate gift.
5. The Significant Objects project
Rob Walker and Joshua Glenn’s original Significant Objects project paired inexpensive thrift-store and garage-sale objects with clearly labeled fictional stories, then sold the objects on eBay. The first 100 objects cost $128.74 in total and sold for $3,612.51. The project’s experimental data reports a 2,706 percent increase in sale value for that first group. The project offers a memorable demonstration of how narrative can influence perceived and trade value, but it should be read as a literary and quasi-anthropological experiment rather than a controlled consumer-behavior study.
Resources
- Order The Business of Storytelling from Don Yaeger’s official website
- Review the book details and retailer options from Simon & Schuster
- Visit Don Yaeger’s official website
- Explore Don Yaeger’s Corporate Competitor Podcast
- Listen to Libby Stinson explain how purposeful questions build trust and Demand
- Explore the In-Demand Agency Podcast archive
Your right next step
Choose one case study, client story, or founder story your agency is already telling.
Write down what you want one right-fit prospect to do, think, and feel after hearing it. Then reverse the I-to-you ratio and make the prospect’s challenge, desired outcome, and path forward easier to see.
And if this episode helps you tell a more purposeful story…share it with one agency leader or teammate who should be part of the rewrite.
Onward with gusto!
About Don Yaeger
Don Yaeger is a thirteen-time New York Times bestselling author, Hall of Fame keynote speaker, executive coach, and longtime Associate Editor of Sports Illustrated. He has spent more than three decades studying, writing, and teaching the habits of great communicators. Don has served as National Geographic’s Storyteller in Residence, hosts the Corporate Competitor Podcast, and leads Greatness Inc. His newest book, The Business of Storytelling: Inspire Action, Build Trust, and Drive Results Through Story, gives leaders a practical framework for using stories to build trust, clarify ideas, and move people to act.
The transcript below has been edited lightly for clarity, speaker identification, and proper names. The audio remains the authoritative version of the conversation.
Why Business Stories Must Move People
Stephen Woessner: With us today is my longtime friend, accountability partner, and mentor, Don Yaeger. Don has spent more than three decades studying, writing, and telling stories. He’s the author of 13 New York Times bestsellers, with more than 7,000,000 copies sold, and 115 weeks on The New York Times bestseller list. And Don would be the first one to tell you that no one gets on The New York Times list alone. The 115 weeks and the 13 bestsellers belong to everyone who trusted Don with their stories. And stories… or more specifically, friends… storytelling is what we look forward to learning from Don today. In Don’s newest book, The Business of Storytelling, he argues that storytelling is not a gift or a soft skill, but instead storytelling is a learnable business discipline. Before we invite Don to join us on the virtual stage, I’m going to share a brief quote from page 46 of The Business of Storytelling because, in my opinion, it perfectly encapsulates the thesis for today’s episode. Okay, so quoting Don here: “To make a story worthy of discussion in a book titled The Business of Storytelling, that story must move a listener from where they are to where the storyteller wants them to be. Because the goal is activation, it must include a challenge to be solved, a lesson on how solving the challenge changed outcomes, and it must provide a clear path forward for the listener.” Friends, your ability to tell stories following the 10 elements that we learned from Don will help your prospects see themselves inside the stories you tell, making it easier for them to become your next new client. And that is what Don, Hannah Roth… who’s our chief strategy officer here at Predictive ROI… and I will examine more closely today so you can take it and apply it on your path to becoming an in-demand agency.
Don, thanks very much for joining us for The In-Demand Agency Podcast. Hannah and I are thrilled to have this opportunity to learn from you and to share your insights and wisdom with our audience.
Don Yaeger: Stephen, I love it. I’m such a fan of you and the podcast, and I’ve been grateful to be on several times, which is pretty awesome. I’ve never had the blessing to have Hannah on as my teammate here, but we’ll make this even better because she’s present.
Hannah Roth: Well, I don’t think he could keep me out. I have several of your books on my bookshelf I’m looking at right now. When you sent the manuscript to us, I read it right away. So I am very excited and feeling very blessed to be here too.
Stephen Woessner: You’ll notice a big difference from when you’ve joined before. Hannah’s gonna raise the bar of excellence, so it’ll be a much better experience for you.
Don Yaeger: Oh, trust me. Just Hannah’s insertion raises the bar of excellence.
Hannah Roth: Let’s just be real.
Stephen Woessner: When we were texting back and forth and I let you know that Hannah was joining, I noticed your enthusiasm went up a little bit.
Hannah Roth: I do what I can.
Start With the Listener
Stephen Woessner: As you and I have talked about, both Hannah and I are big fans of your book. We’re super excited for this conversation. You open the book with a story about Thanksgiving dinner… and not just about the dinner with your dad and family. I love how you tell the story of running out of chairs in the room, but then you were making observations about what else was happening in the room. Take us back to that story and take us back to the room. What did you see happening as your dad was telling the story and others in the room were experiencing the story? Because that sounded like a very formative story for you.
Don Yaeger: It was, on a number of levels. One of the lines I had in there was that I said, “I don’t know what Thanksgiving looked like at your house growing up…” and then I pause when I tell it verbally, and I say, “but in my house, there was one thing we always knew we were gonna run out of: chairs.”
Stephen Woessner: Yeah.
Don Yaeger: The reason I say that phrase is because I understand the psychology of storytelling. I understand how my words can affect other people. Good storytellers can affect other people. By simply saying, “I don’t know what it looked like at your house growing up,” and then pausing… it gives you a second to think about Thanksgiving at your house growing up. Which means from there forward, we’re in the story together. It’s not me telling about my Thanksgiving; it’s us talking about our Thanksgiving in different households. Recently I had the opportunity to do a large session on storytelling with a major swath of the sales team for North America and Latin America for NVIDIA, the technology company that happens to own the world right now. At the end, the senior vice president of NVIDIA came up to me and said, “You know what? I don’t think I appreciated how intentional everything you do is.” I think that’s a major word in all of this… good storytelling is intentionally done. It’s not accidental. The construction of a good story is thoughtful. That’s where you leave pauses for people to think about Thanksgiving in their house.
But back to your question… you asked about what I saw in my father. I was just a year out of high school, a college kid. In my formative years, I had always watched my father tell stories. He was good. He was really good. But I had never paid attention to what happened when other people watched my father tell stories. That was the difference that day. Because of where I was sitting… I was fixated on the way people were leaning forward when he got to certain stages, how no one moved as he brought it in for a beautiful landing. It was just magical. They say that when a good storyteller has you in his or her palm, time stands still. You don’t pay attention to “how quick is this gonna be over?” That day, I felt every bit of that watching other people. That’s where I said, I need to get me some of that. I gotta figure out how to be some of that. It started a journey for me that was pretty powerful.
Stephen Woessner: So how did your dad do that? It’s one thing to want to do it, to practice trying to do it, to try to be intentional. But how did he do it? Maybe it came from reps. Maybe he studied everyone else in the room, knew who was going to be there. I know that research has been really important for you before you step in and interview. But how did he do that?
Don Yaeger: There were parts of it that were physical. His ability to make great eye contact and make sure that people felt like he was talking to them. One of the great challenges if you’re storytelling in front of a group is that if you don’t manage to share the wealth of your attention, people begin to think, “okay, this one’s not for me.” He was good at that. He could make other people feel like he was talking to them when there were 500 in the room… 500 in the church. My dad was a preacher. I was on a podcast with Simon Sinek recently, and Simon asked me about my dad and storytelling. I said, “You know what was interesting, Simon? My dad used to say the two greatest storytellers in history were Jesus Christ and Adolf Hitler.” That really caught Simon… almost took his breath away, Simon being Jewish. The idea that I would insert Adolf Hitler into the equation was a moment to be taken back.
Stephen Woessner: Yeah.
Don Yaeger: But it’s true. Both of those storytellers moved millions to do things they weren’t ready to do. On one hand, in a very positive way; on the other, in an extraordinarily negative way. In both cases, it wasn’t by command. It was through story that they drew you to them. If you can become a great storyteller, you can change the world.
Hannah Roth: In your book, you talk about the angel’s concoction and devil’s concoction… the right kind of mix and recipe of how to do that well and how to do that for nefarious reasons. Our listeners will have to read that part of the book because it’s super fascinating.
Don Yaeger: Look at that. The first person to say they need to buy or read that portion of the book is Hannah.
Hannah Roth: Come on, Woessner. Where are you?
Don Yaeger: I gotta put kids through college, man. What’s up?
Stephen Woessner: So you’re saying I dropped the ball. Is that what you’re saying?
Don Yaeger: You did.
Stephen Woessner: Okay. Fumble on me, coach.
Don Yaeger: Unfortunately… but fortunately, you had somebody there to…
Hannah Roth: Pick it up and run with it.
Stephen Woessner: It’s alright.
Hannah Roth: Good job. Go, Hannah.
Stephen Woessner: Hashtag great team. Great team.
Hannah Roth: I do what I can, guys. In all seriousness, I mentioned to you in the green room that the book was incredible… really impactful and applicable. One of the things I found the most comforting is that it’s not a soft skill. You said the debate is over…it’s not a soft skill. A lot of times, people tend to think, “Oh, well, I’m just not a good storyteller,” or “I don’t know how to tell a good story.” It really takes practice and repetition and building that muscle… working on it.
Don Yaeger: Being intentional. Being intentional about it.
Story, Perceived Value, and Experience
Hannah Roth: That leads me into a second question, building on that, about how good stories affect value. Obviously, people took what Jesus said, and that was very valuable. Took what Hitler said, and that was valuable to them. You share one of the experiments in the book about how people bought several different things from thrift stores or garage sales…
Don Yaeger: Yeah. Things that didn’t have a whole lot of monetary value.
Hannah Roth: But then writers wrote stories about those objects, and they were able to sell them for quite a bit more and get that return on investment. What do you think changes in the buyer’s mind…or what changes in that value equation…once you attach that story to that object?
Don Yaeger: When a story is attached to an object…an object could be one of these tchotchkes that was used in this particular example, or it could be a product you’re trying to sell from your organization…when people can make an emotional connection to it… when they can, in some ways, see that this is not just a three-inch-tall tchotchke, it’s got a story, it has a history… we value the story. And by the way, history is story. The ability to share with other people that this isn’t just a Diet Coke can…let me tell you the history, let me tell you how this can landed in my hands…and if I can do that in a compelling enough way with a story that’s interesting enough, you’ll suddenly go, “Man, I wish I could have that can. I don’t want just any can of Diet Coke. I want that can.”
The ability to build emotional connection between a listener and whatever it is you are presenting is often best done through story. If you were to talk to me about wanting to work with your agency, one of the stories you might tell is about an employee who has just lit the world on fire. What’s their passion? Why do they love working with their clients? Maybe mention a client that employee had recently worked with. Just in the telling of that story, I’m more attracted to your agency. I’m also more attracted to that person who works in your company. I might even say, “I’ll do my business if he or she gets to be the person I interact with.” You create more energy for what you are trying to do when you can attach a story to it.
Hannah Roth: Don, that is so true. As you’re telling that story…no pun intended…I was thinking about the best salesperson I’ve ever encountered, which was actually in Key West. They were selling…
Don Yaeger: It wasn’t Stephen?
Stephen Woessner: Wow.
Don Yaeger: Yeah. It was… yet.
Hannah Roth: Yet to try to sell my book. But go ahead.
Stephen Woessner: I’m gonna go ahead and leave… come back to you maybe for the closing and the goodbye.
Don Yaeger: You don’t really need to be there for that either. Hannah and I… we got it from here.
Stephen Woessner: Okay.
Hannah Roth: We got it. One of the best salespeople I ever encountered was in Key West, and this person was selling these blown-glass jellyfish things. Not super unique. But as we were talking, they were saying that each one was unique, and the artist’s breath is forever immortalized in this jellyfish thing.
Stephen Woessner: Oh, wow.
Hannah Roth: They had an amazing story. Honest to God, we ended up paying like $1,100 for this…
Stephen Woessner: Oh my God.
Hannah Roth: And I think to add insult to injury a little bit…
Don Yaeger: I’ve got a Diet Coke can for you. Let me go to work.
Hannah Roth: If you pay $1,100 for someone’s breath in a…
Don Yaeger: There you go.
Hannah Roth: They told it in this beautiful, really compelling way. I think to add insult to injury, once we got back from Key West, we started seeing them at the mall or on Amazon, and they were like $16. I was like, oh my God, this person totally got me. But you better believe it’s displayed at my house.
Don Yaeger: It’s massively displayed. And with a note saying, “Breath inside.”
Hannah Roth: Right. Read the story. Read the story.
Don Yaeger: It’s funny. My wife… we have these really great towels that you love to get out of the shower and dry with. The other day, I got out and grabbed the towel, and it was not good. I was like, something happened to our towels. What happened? She said, “Yeah, sorry. I was on some marketplace, and this woman told this magical story about how, in her younger years, she worked as a nanny for some of the wealthiest people in all of London. One thing these families all had in common was they had this towel that they would dry their children with. I swore to myself one day when I can afford it, I’m gonna own these towels. As it happened, my husband got to know somebody, and we ended up with a thousand of these towels. I’ve got them for you at this amazing price. You can have what the wealthiest people in London have at this amazing deal.” My wife was like, “Oh my gosh, what a great story. They wiped their babies in this towel. I can’t wait to try one.”
Hannah Roth: And these towels were utter crap, right?
Don Yaeger: They were horrible. We ended up throwing them away after one. I was gonna…
Hannah Roth: You need to ship them to me so I can clean my jellyfish statue with crappy towels.
Don Yaeger: But I listened to her do this, and I’m sitting there going, you just got used by a story. My guess… this woman never nannied for anybody. She has never seen a wealthy person who had this towel because I guarantee you, I’m not wealthy, and I didn’t want to have that towel. So anyway, the bottom line is, yes… story, when attached to an item, makes it more attractive. Makes you wanna be there. Gotta have a little of that.
Stephen Woessner: It was a really compelling experiment, being able to read that in the book.
Hannah Roth: The book that people should buy.
Stephen Woessner: Yeah.
Hannah Roth: Yeah.
Stephen Woessner: She never misses it.
Don Yaeger: No. But you know what also happens? He never hits it.
Stephen Woessner: Yeah.
Don Yaeger: She never misses. You never hit. Let’s just…
Stephen Woessner: I am not a contact hitter. Clearly, Hannah steps into the box and just…
Don Yaeger: Clearly.
Hannah Roth: Alright. I got you.
Stephen Woessner: Knocking it all over the park.
Hannah Roth: Gotcha.
Research, Connection, and Better Questions
Stephen Woessner: We’d love to have your insights on the three concentric circles. Kind of a two-part question: give us some context around the circles, and then how you applied research in the other two circles when you had the opportunity to sit down with Michael Jordan and how you wanted to ask questions that he’d never been asked before in the thousands of other interviews. Take us behind that scene. It’s very compelling in the book. The story that MJ shared with you is off the charts.
Don Yaeger: Years ago, I started arguing that the number one mistake made by most storytellers… the number one place where most miss the mark… is they haven’t taken time to understand who they’re telling their story to. They haven’t spent any time understanding their listener. It could be a single listener; it could be a room. If you don’t know who you’re speaking to, you don’t know how to speak to them. You don’t know what will resonate.
Stephen Woessner: Yep.
Don Yaeger: I defined years ago that for me to do my best, I needed to live through three concentric circles. The outside circle is research. What do I do to research the people I’m gonna get time with? What can I learn about them that will allow me to know who they are and what they care about? I actually say in the book and presentations that nothing makes someone more into you than when they find that you’ve taken time to be interested in them.
Stephen Woessner: Amen.
Don Yaeger: Everybody says people wanna buy from people they like. I finish that sentence by saying… and people like people like them. That takes you to the second circle, which is… once you’ve learned something about someone, once you’ve learned a little bit of their story, find points of connection. If you do your job right, there’s almost no one you can’t find a point of connection with.
Stephen Woessner: Okay.
Don Yaeger: There’s something in their life story, something in your life story, that in some small way will intersect. Your ability to bring that up or share that point of connection with them suddenly puts the two of you on the same playing field. Many people think when you’re a salesperson, you’re down here because the buyer has the role of superiority. Flip that. If you’re a public speaker, sometimes you’re on the stage and you’re viewed to be up here and audience members are down here. When you actually find a point of connection between you and your listener, you become eye to eye. That is the ultimate position to be in to have great influence.
When you do that, then you get to the center of the concentric circles. That’s straight up… the bull’s-eye. You have the ability to ask better questions. You have earned the right to be heard differently. When someone’s listening to you because you’ve done the work to be there… The story you’re referring to occurred a few years ago. I was invited to spend some time with Michael Jordan on what was his fiftieth birthday.
Stephen Woessner: Okay.
Don Yaeger: A couple other journalists were part of it, but it was a day to spend time with Jordan preparing a story about a half-century of greatness. The easy, cheap questions are like, “Hey Michael, what’s it feel like to sound like snap, crackle, pop when you walk across the bedroom in the morning?” Because you’re so old now and rickety and your joints are sore. There are all kinds of easy, cheap questions you could ask. Instead, I did the research. I’ve interviewed Jordan many times, but in this particular case, I wanted to find something I could talk to him about that I didn’t feel he’d ever talked about before. I came up with this entire fascination with the way Michael Jordan and his father had a very strained and difficult relationship.
So I get to the second circle, and I decide to share with Jordan my difficult relationship with my own father.
Stephen Woessner: So…
Don Yaeger: I mentioned to you, I’m a son of a preacher. There were many years in my teens when I resented my father because there were plenty of times I felt like our house was falling apart and he was down the street trying to fix somebody else’s house.
Stephen Woessner: Yep.
Don Yaeger: Over the years, we worked things out, and things were great as I got older. But at that time, that’s what I felt. I wanted to share with Jordan that we had this very small thing in common. We both desired our father’s attention, our father’s love, and we both struggled to get it. That allowed me to ask Michael a question you can’t ask if you don’t do the outer two circles. I said, “Michael, was there ever a moment, ever something said by your father that left a scar that you still think of today?” You can’t ask that if you hadn’t done that work. Jordan proceeds to tell me a story he would later say he had never shared. About a moment in the garage of his house… Michael Jordan was 10 years old, and he was trying to prove to his father that he was going to be a young man. His dad loved to make fun of Michael because all Michael did was play. Michael’s brother, who’s a year older, loved to spend time with his dad in the garage working on cars, working on things. His dad asked Michael for a wrench just to involve him in this time in the garage, and Michael can’t find the right wrench because he’d never been there and didn’t understand. When Michael handed him the wrong wrench, his father blistered him for even being there. Like, “I don’t know why you’re out here. Why don’t you go back in there and play and hang out with the ladies?” He was trying to make fun of Michael and tell him he didn’t belong in the man’s garage.
Jordan told me this occurred when he was 10. Now he’s 50. Forty years. In that forty years, he still remembered the size of the wrench… nine-sixteenths. He still remembered the insult: “Why don’t you go in there and hang out with the ladies?” He said, “You wanna know why I became great? Because I wanted nothing more than to have my father one day look at me and say, ‘Wow. Great job.’” He thought nothing I did counted for anything because it was always playing. But I wanted one day to have my father say, “Good job.” It was a really powerful story that he shared only because I did the work to know my audience. I thought I knew Michael Jordan. I knew him better after that story.
Stephen Woessner: Wow.
Don Yaeger: I thought I understood why he was the greatest of all time. I understand more completely after that story.
Stephen Woessner: What’s amazing about that… even though you knew him well, even though you had interviewed him many times before…heck, you’d scored on him from the three-point line…
Don Yaeger: Not at that stage. I hadn’t yet. That happened a couple of years later, but that’s okay.
Stephen Woessner: When you guys played. But even though you knew him, you still did the work. You still worked through the circles. You didn’t take it for granted as another interview with Michael Jordan. You worked through the process. Did you approach it with that level of rigor and discipline because, in some way, if you could have this type of conversation that you ended up having, that would be a gift back to him on a milestone birthday?
Don Yaeger: I didn’t quite think of it as a gift back to him. But that’s not uncommon. I do that kind of research. You and I have talked about how I started a podcast because of you. The level of research we do for every podcast guest is incredible. If they have a book, we’re always sure to say you should buy their book.
Stephen Woessner: Okay, good. And I’m going to practice that going forward because clearly, I have missed it.
Don Yaeger: Good. By the way…
Stephen Woessner: Subtlety is normally lost on me, but I picked that up.
Don Yaeger: It took you a minute. I noticed there was this clink…
Stephen Woessner: It did. I’m like, “Oh, he’s… oh, wait. He’s referring to me right there.”
Don Yaeger: That’s right. But at the end of the day, I know so much about the person I’m interviewing that it is not at all uncommon. Brian Moynihan, CEO of Bank of America, ended the interview saying, “I haven’t thought about some of these things you’ve asked me in years. What you brought me back to… you just made my day.” The CEO of Bank of America can say that because I asked him about a high school football coach he played for who he hadn’t thought about. I actually called the coach and said, “By the way, you should listen to this podcast because Brian Moynihan talks about you in really unbelievable ways.” Then I connected the two of them, and Brian got the chance to hear from his coach how grateful he was for the kind words. It’s those little things that, when you do them… when you spend the extra time, when you do the extra work… it changes everything.
Hannah Roth: I think that’s really important, and I don’t want our listeners to miss this, so I’m gonna state it so there’s not a subtlety around it. One of the things I’m picking up from what you’re saying, Don, is that it’s really important to do this in general, but I think it’s even more important to do it with people that you actually already know or that you think you know well. One of the conversations I have a lot with agency owners is, “Have you talked with your current clients? Have you asked them some of these questions?” “Oh, no. We’re in a scope of work. We do this. We do that.” It’s so important to never stop being curious because you can always take the relationship deeper, or you can always learn more about people. But sometimes we tend to stop being curious when we think, “We have a good idea of what’s going on with them.” The process you shared…the research, the points of connection, and then earning the right to ask better questions or to approach them with something different than they’ve been approached with before…don’t miss that. If you’re thinking about your current clients and you haven’t had a deeper conversation with them for a while, do some research. Find points of connection. Reach out and talk about things you haven’t talked about or haven’t asked them for a while, or maybe ever before.
Don Yaeger: That was really well done. You should work with Stephen on the way you do that… that ability to cut through the subtlety and just…
Stephen Woessner: I’m taking a lot of notes here on how I can do a better job.
Don Yaeger: Those pages are blank.
Stephen Woessner: Yeah. They’re props. Just props.
Hannah Roth: Building on that, Don, one of the things I also talk with our clients about…and I know our listeners have heard me say this in other podcasts…is you have to be interested in them before you ask them to be interested in you.
Don Yaeger: Yep.
Reverse the I-to-You Ratio
Hannah Roth: In your book, you talk about reversing the I-to-you ratio. What have you seen in your experience that changes when an audience stops feeling spoken at and they start to co-create the story alongside you… participate or collaborate in that with you?
Don Yaeger: That’s the ultimate experience. That’s when the story is not being shared with them… you’re sharing the story together. One of the most effective ways to bring your listener into your story is to use the phrase you used there, called reversing the I-to-you ratio. If you understand what I’m saying here, you’ll start to realize every great storyteller you imagine…if you listen to them…you will discover that they do this. You dictate or record your story as you would tell it to someone, and then you look at every place where you say the word I or me or my, and you try to figure out… how can I make it inclusive of the listener? How could I insert the word you instead of I?
The example I use often, because it’s dramatic and makes its point clearly, is: you could say, “And there I was… the top of Mount Kilimanjaro, having mastered the greatest mountain on Earth. There I was.” It’s quite a statement. It makes you either really like me for having done that or think, “Man, that guy’s a blowhard.” Instead, if you flip the sentence and say, “You can only imagine what it felt like to be standing atop Mount Kilimanjaro. You can only imagine what the air felt like, what the sightlines looked like. You can only imagine how powerful it was to be standing there on the world’s greatest mountain.” Same thing… I was on top of the mountain in both cases. But in the first, I’m telling you how amazing I am. In the second, it was you. I reversed the I to you. In that second one, you are assuredly envisioning what it must be like to be up there. Only because I reversed those two words.
Hannah Roth: That’s such a powerful concept… a powerful move. When you open the book, you talk about Thanksgiving…going back to where we started…when I read your book and you open with that sentence about, “I don’t know what Thanksgiving was like in your house,” I immediately did exactly what you said. I took myself back to my great-grandparents’ house… pot pie on the table, turkey in the oven, pumpkin pie cooking… all the things.
Don Yaeger: In a split second. Suddenly, we’re in Thanksgiving dinner together.
Decide What the Listener Should Do, Think, and Feel
Hannah Roth: Exactly. One of the concepts in the book you talk about is before you construct the story, you ask what you want the reader to do, think, and feel. I think you just demonstrated that really well, but I’d like to peel back the layers a bit more. Can you walk us through your process? Is that something you write down? How do you actually go through those three decisions that help you shape that story?
Don Yaeger: Sometimes they’re made on the fly. I could be talking to you, engaged in a conversation, and I’m like, you know what I really want Hannah to do when I’m done is… I want Hannah to feel like the next time she buys…
Hannah Roth: Oh, look it…
Don Yaeger: Yes. Well, keep working. Keep working.
Stephen Woessner: Oh my…
Don Yaeger: By the way, if she was doing the I-to-you ratio, Stephen, you were still stuck on I. She cared about me… you. She cared about… anyway.
Stephen Woessner: Yeah.
Don Yaeger: If you’re getting ready to think about a story you might tell somebody, I want to know in advance what I want you to do at the end… what I want you to do, think, or feel. Everybody thinks it’s about do… like, I have to make this person buy. It could be that I want you to think, “That dude’s really interesting. I’d love to spend more time with him. That’s somebody I could learn from.” Or feel… maybe I want you at the end to go, “I feel better. I feel more alive for having had this conversation.” What do you want your listener to do, think, feel when it’s over? If you don’t know that before you start telling a story, you’re just letting it happen and hoping you get the right result. You’re hoping that by chance they’ll land where you want them to land. We all know that in any environment in which you’re being intentional, if you leave something to chance… that’s your failure.
Hannah Roth: I’m gonna start running that through with our clients because sometimes the focus is a little bit lopsided. It’s maybe too much on do and not think or feel. Sometimes the think or the feel is what elicits that trust and helps build that bridge. That’s gonna be a really good test I’m going to start asking our clients: after that conversation, what do you think they thought? What do you think they felt?
Stephen Woessner: I know we need to start thinking about coming in for a landing here, but what I love about what you guys are talking about is the do, think, feel. We oftentimes get questions from agencies of “How do I get my audience to do this thing that I want them to do?” You’re giving us such a completely different perspective. It’s not that a story doesn’t have a CTA. It’s not that the business of storytelling doesn’t lead to some result outcome. But we need to think about the audience first. I think you really shifted the perspective that if we can win the hearts and minds of the audience because we were there for them intentionally and we share a story in that way… then when there’s the business outcome piece, the friction is either greatly diminished or perhaps removed. Brother, would you agree or disagree with that?
Don Yaeger: Completely. That’s the entire point here. I argue that good storytelling is done for a purpose. You used the phrase in your introduction… good stories move people. They move people. There are stories meant for reading to your children at nighttime, and there are stories meant to scare people around a campfire. That’s not the storytelling we’re talking about here. What I’m talking about here is the business of storytelling…how people will do better business if they learn this skill.
Stephen Woessner: Amen to that. Let’s come in for a landing and close out and say goodbye. We’re gonna say goodbye to you, Don, but friends, please stay with us because Hannah and I will be right back with our debrief…with some of the highlights we learned from Don, the insights and wisdom we collected, and some of the takeaways we want you to add to your notes and put into practice. Don, thank you so much for generously sharing your insights and wisdom. We’re very grateful for you taking the time. It was a delight and always fun to spend time with you, brother. Thank you.
Don Yaeger: Stephen, you’re one of my all-time favorites. And, Hannah, you’ve done a really incredible job of surpassing him by actually having a good call to action in almost every good question you had. I’m joking. But anyway, love you guys both, and an honor to be part of your team today.
Hannah Roth: Thank you, Don.
Closing Takeaways
Stephen Woessner: Hi, friends. I hope that you really enjoyed the time with Don Yaeger as much as Hannah and I did. Holy bananas… that was awesome. Hannah and I are gonna do a debrief. As you know, Hannah tracks the biggest takeaways throughout the conversation. She’s gonna share her biggest takeaways with you, and then we’ll come in for a landing. I’m gonna pass the baton to Hannah. Can’t wait to hear what you pulled out of that conversation, Hannah.
Hannah Roth: Thank you. I think the hardest part was narrowing it down. If I have to really dive into the highlights, I’m like… just go listen to the episode. But I’m gonna do my best to distill it down. The first thing I took away was Don’s story at Thanksgiving…watching his father tell a story to many people and the way he engaged different people. That shows the transcendence between a story and an experience. When you can turn the story into an experience that people feel invited to participate in, that’s what makes a really powerful story. That was one of my first takeaways.
We talked a little bit about attaching the story to an object. If an object has a story, it’s perceived as being more valuable. Storytelling really does have a place in business. If you are trying to grow your agency or your business, you should not ignore the art of storytelling. You should invest in it because it can add value to your products and services.
Next, Don talked about how you have to be interested in someone before you ask them to be interested in you. He said the number one mistake is not understanding the listener or your audience. Obviously, at Predictive ROI, you guys know we talk about that all the time. Don illustrated this well with the three concentric circles: starting with research in the outer ring, then connecting on relational values…those points of connection…and then that earns you the right to ask better questions. He told us about the heart question and story he had with Michael Jordan. That kind of context beforehand allowed him, and earned him, the right to ask a question like that. It’s really important that you don’t ignore that process. Again, especially with people you know or people you already work with, do not skip the research. Do not skip the curiosity. Do not skip the points of connection. It’s really important to continue that because you never know what kind of opportunities may open up.
I’ve got two more highlights. Next is the I-to-you ratio. Make sure that you’re putting them in the story with you. If you’re sharing a story, writing content, sharing a blog or an article, tell it in such a way that allows the reader or listener to experience it or put themselves in that spot with you. That way, you’re not talking at them; you’re talking with them. It’s a collaborative effort. They feel really involved and engaged, and it helps them pay attention. It also helps you earn trust.
Lastly is the do, think, and feel question. Before you tell a story, think about this: what do you want your listener or your audience to do? What do you want them to think, and how do you want them to feel? If you can’t answer those questions, it may not be as impactful as you’d like it to be. Doing a little bit of prep work…homework…on that before you enter into conversations or stories is going to be really beneficial.
I have one more thing to add from the book. We didn’t actually get to this. I have a whole list of notes we didn’t get to from Don’s book because it was so good. I want to leave our listeners with this: in one of the chapters, Don asks a really profound question…”If a story were removed, would a business outcome suffer?” When you’re thinking about what you’re sharing, creating content, and what’s on your website… if it’s just about what you do or how you do it, I encourage you to ask that question: if this story were removed, would the business outcome suffer? That’s it. I hope you guys enjoyed the episode. I know I enjoyed the interview and lots of great takeaways there. And I know we joked a lot, but I really encourage you to pick up Don’s book. It is fantastic.
Stephen Woessner: It is absolutely fantastic. If you’re listening to this episode on the day that it was published…today would be Wednesday, September 16…Don’s book, The Business of Storytelling, became available yesterday on Tuesday, the fifteenth. We’re gonna share some details about the book. We have absolutely no financial affiliation with Don at all. We’re recommending Don and his insights and expertise because he’s awesome, not because there’s some sort of kickback to Predictive ROI. Let me share this last piece, and then we’re gonna say goodbye. You heard Hannah say the story then becomes an experience. Next week’s episode is going to be with Neen James, our expert in the room, and we’re so excited to spend time with Neen because experiences…particularly luxury experiences and creating exceptional, intentional experiences for your audience…is her depth of expertise. We’re really looking forward to that. But until then, friends… onward…
Hannah Roth: Mhmm.
Stephen Woessner: With gusto.
Each episode of the In-Demand Agency Podcast deconstructs the science of demand…from behavioral psychology, decision-making research, and the cross-industry strategies behind why B2B buyers make decisions.